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Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:51:54 -0500
Reply-To:     WORLD WAR II FORUM 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         Elizabeth Fones-Wolf 
Subject:      Re: William Tuttle's Opening Statement
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Hello WWII Forum,

    I have taught a World War II class twice (approx. 50 students).  My
class emphasized the social, economic, and political impact of World War II
on American society, with much less emphasis on diplomatic.  We briefly
surveyed military strategy and spent a bit more time on the GI experience
but the class was certainly not a military history.  The first time I taught
it in the Spring of 1995 with about 20% graduate students, the class was
very successful and most of the students were excited about the material,
but last semester the course was all undergrad and 95% male.  These students
were very unhappy with the course's emphasis on social history (they hated
The Dollmaker, for instance) and made this known in the student evaluations.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to deal with this problem?

Elizabeth Fones-Wolf, West Virginia University


>Dear Colleagues,
>
>Just this week, a group of prominent journalists and scholars ranked the
>top 100 new events of the last 100 years.  Two of the top three events
>related to America's involvement in the Second World War.  The top event
>was the American atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki which ended
>the war in 1945.  Ranked number three was the Japanese attack on Pearl
>Harbor which launched the war in 1941.
>
> The Second World War was a worldwide struggle against racism,
>imperialism, and genocide.  For that reason, some people have called it
>"The Good War."  And since the United States was forever changed by the
>war -- socially, economically, politically, and culturally -- some
>scholars and journalists have called it a watershed in American history.
>
>In teaching the history of the United States during the Second World
>War, I have found not only that students respond well to the questions
>of whether this was a good war or a watershed, but also -- and perhaps
>more importantly -- that they begin to ask their own questions, such as,
>"For whom was this a good war?"  "For whom was this a watershed?"  These
>questions move the discussion away from abstract concerns and on to the
>lives of the American people who fought the war abroad and at home.
>These questions shift the focus to the lives, for example, of working
>women during the war, to African Americans and other people of color, to
>the 112,000 Japanese Americans who were interned, to farmers and
>blue-collar workers, to children and teenagers, and to the more than 16
>million men and women who served their country in the armed forces and
>who were permanently changed, both positively and negatively, by the
>experience.
>
>We should also, I believe, consider the Second World War's lingering
>impact on postwar America.  For example, what was the postwar impact of
>the atomic bomb and the nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union?  What
>was the impact of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), the GI Bill,
>and the continued migration of African Americans from the South to the
>cities of the North and West, and of Americans generally to the Sun
>Belt?  What was the postwar impact of the war on popular culture, for
>example, on war films from "The Best Years of Our Lives" to "Sands of
>Iwo Jima," and from "The Longest Day" to "Saving Sergeant Ryan"?
>
>Let me confess at the outset that I am not an expert on military or
>diplomatic history, though I am deeply interested in the history of the
>atomic bomb.  (I hope that some in this discussion group will be able to
>offer suggestions for those who have questions about military or
>diplomatic history.)  My strength is what was happening socially,
>economically, politically, and culturally, that is, what was happening
>on the American homefront, and how the homefront experience was shaped
>by race, gender, age, class, religion, sexual orientation, and other
>factors.
>
>
>I have read the opening statements by the historians who have moderated
>prior sessions of "Talking History."  They are very provocative, but I
>would like to introduce this discussion of the Second World War a little
>differently.  First, I would like to contend that the war was a
>watershed in American history.  I recognize that this contention is
>vulnerable to criticism, and I urge you to tear it apart.  Second, I
>have prepared an annotated bibliography for your use.  I hope you find
>it a helpful starting point.
>
>I hope, too, that in our discussions you will talk about teaching
>strategies and sources which you have found successful, including oral
>history projects, specific films and audiovisual aids, other websites,
>etc., and that you will discuss both practical problems and
>conceptual/theoretical problems in teaching the history of the United
>States during the war.  I want you to feel free to submit issues or
>questions, and I hope that you will be encouraged to respond not only to
>me, but to one another as well.
>
>First, here is my annotated bibliography which discusses major
>historiographical themes:
>
>Anderson, Karen, Wartime Women: Sex Roles, Family Relations, and the
>Status of Women During World War II, Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1981
>
>Bernstein, Alison R., American Indians and World War II: Toward a New
>Era in Indian Affairs, Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1991
>
>Blum, John Morton, V Was for Victory: Politics and American Culture
>During World War II, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1976
>
>Campbell, D'Ann, Women at War with America: Private Lives in a Patriotic
>Era, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1984
>
>Clive, Alan, State of War: Michigan in World War II, Ann Arbor:
>University of Michigan Press, 1979
>
>Daniels, Roger, Prisoners Without Trial: Japanese Americans in World War
>II, New York: Hill and Wang, 1993
>
>O'Neill, William L., A Democracy at War: America's Fight at Home and
>Abroad in World War II, New York: Free Press, 1993
>
>Nash, Gerald D., The American West Transformed: The Impact of the Second
>World War, Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1985
>
>Polenberg, Richard, War and Society: The United States, 1941-1945,
>Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott, 1972
>
>Terkel, Studs, "The Good War": An Oral History of World War Two, New
>York: Pantheon Books, 1984
>
>Tuttle, William M., Jr., "Daddy's Gone to War": The Second World War in
>the Lives of America's Children, New York: Oxford University Press, 1993
>
>Wynn, Neil A., The Afro-American and the Second World War, New York:
>Holmes & Meier, rev. ed., 1993
>
>Few events have so electrified the United States as the Japanese attack
>on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.  Americans who lived during the
>Second World War knew that that their world, and their lives, would
>never be the same again -- and they never were.  How their lives did
>change has been the subject of a rich body of historical writing.  In
>recent years historians studying change on the homefront have shifted
>their scholarly focus; instead of looking at the ostensibly united
>homefront, they have disaggregated the population and examined how the
>war affected different groups in society.  From this perspective, "The
>Good War" is a much more complex phenomenon.
>
>"The Good War" (1984) is the ironic title which TERKEL has given to his
>popular oral history which demythologizes the Second World War.  These
>interviews show that while patriotism was deeply held and goals were
>widely shared, national unity papered over deep ethnic, religious, and
>racial divisions, including the race riots that swept the country in
>1943.  Rapid and immense social change on the home front was evident at
>every hand from 1941 to 1945; there were millions of fathers going to
>war, millions of mothers going to work in war factories, and millions of
>families migrating from one part of the country to another.  The Second
>World War resulted in victory for the United States and its allies, but
>as recent histories of the homefront have demonstrated, the social costs
>were high.
>
>In addition to TERKEL, among the most perceptive and widely-read
>histories of the homefront are POLENBERG, BLUM, and O'NEILL.  These
>books all deal with people of color and with race relations as important
>indicators of social strain during the war, but they should be
>supplemented by other books.  Helpful studies of wartime civil rights
>activism, race riots, and the black press have been published; the most
>comprehensive general history of African Americans during the war is
>WYNN.  There is also a rich body of literature, both scholarly and
>autobiographical, on the Japanese-American internment.  The most recent
>history by the leading scholar on the topic is DANIELS.  BERNSTEIN is
>the first book-length study of American Indians during the war.
>
>Scholars with an interest in social history have focused on how the war
>affected women and children.  Histories disagree whether the war was "a
>turning point" in American women's history.  Some contend that it was
>because of the unprecedented job opportunities that arose in defense
>industries.  ANDERSON sees continuity in the persistence of salary
>discrimination against woman and of job segregation by sex as well as
>race and class, but she also sees great change.  For her, the decision
>of large numbers of married women, and mothers, to take war jobs, was "a
>profoundly important event in American social history."  CAMPBELL
>disagrees, contending that the war "did not mark a drastic break with
>traditional working patterns or sex roles."  In presenting the
>children's homefront history, TUTTLE examines father absence and father
>return along with other aspects of girls' and boys' wartime lives,
>emphasizing gender differences in their war games, schooling, popular
>culture, and other experiences.  The war left an indelible imprint onthe
>dreams and nightmares of an American generation not only in
>childhood, but in adulthood as well.
>
>The Second World War was a time of fundamental change on the homefront;
>some scholars have called it a watershed period in United States
>history.  Although the war usually did not initiate new changes, it
>rapidly accelerated those already underway.  Appropriations for the war
>lifted the country out of the Great Depression and stimulated the
>building not only of defense plants, but of war-boom communities of
>newly-arrived migrants.  CLIVE focuses on "the worker's war" in
>Michigan, including the migration to Detroit of both African Americans
>and whites from the South.  Not only cities and towns, but entire
>regions of the country were changed by the war.  NASH shows how the war
>transformed the American West socially and culturally.  It was also a
>time of massive personal change.  BERUBE is an illuminating history of
>gay men and lesbians who served their country in the war, and came out
>in the process.  In this way and in countless others, Americans
>discovered not only new talents and new horizons on the home front, but
>also new identities.
>
>Best, Bill Tuttle
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:25:08 -0500
Reply-To:     WORLD WAR II FORUM 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         "David C. Fisher" 
Subject:      a comparative approach?
In-Reply-To:  
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Greetings,

I am interested to know what others think about a comparative approach to
World War II.  Is it appropriate for the US survey?  Is there room for it
on the syllabus?

I am a graduate student studying Russian and U.S. history.  For a number of
semesters I have worked with undergrad discussion groups as part of the US
survey.  At present I'm preparing for my oral exams and have been putting a
lot of thought into how I would teach a US survey class.  It makes good
sense to me to focus on the fascinating complexities of the homefront
experience.  However, I'm interested to know if any of you have attempted
to contextualize that experience in the international perspective of the
war?  How do we convey to students in an introductory class that the US did
not fight and win the war by itself?  As I read the list of the top 100
news events of the 20th century I was reminded of how we Americans have a
hard time seeing world events from a global perspective.  For example, No.
24 on the list describes the D-Day invasion as "the beginning of the end of
World War II in Europe."  Many would argue (esp. in Russia) that the
beginning of the end of the war ocurred not in the west but in the east at
Stalingrad and Kursk.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.  Back to the books . . .

David Fisher
Indiana University
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:40:01 -0500
Reply-To:     WORLD WAR II FORUM 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         Robert Shaffer 
Subject:      Re: a comparative approach?
In-Reply-To:  
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        David Fisher raises an important issue on a comparative approach
to World War II, and the all-important question of how to fit it into the
U.S. survey course syllabus.  On the specific topic that he raises, the
relative contribution of Stalingrad/Eastern front vs. D-Day/Western front,
I believe that it is essential in any course, at any level, to emphasize
the military contributions and the human costs of the Soviet war effort.
In all courses I have taught -- as a high school teacher years ago, in the
survey course, in diplomatic history courses, in world history courses --
I have emphasized this issue, in part because of its importance to World
War II, but also because of its importance to the development of the Cold
War.  That is to say, the Soviet perception of their sacrifices and
importance to victory in World War II profoundly shaped their views on the
post-war world.  Moreover, the realpolitik of the situation was that the
U.S. and Britain at Yalta had little real leverage over the Soviets in
eastern Europe, just as the Soviets had little leverage over the U.S. in
Italy.  I would recommend a section of William O'Neill's _A Democracy at
War_ on the long-term geostrategic implications of the delay by Churchill
and Roosevelt of launching a real Second Front in Europe as instructive in
this regard.  O'Neill argues, among other things, that while many
anti-Communists in the U.S. and Britain opposed an early Second Front, its
delay in the end strengthened the Soviet position in eastern Europe and
hampered later efforts to contain the spread of Soviet power.  Conversely,
of course, the Popular Fronters who wanted an early Second Front may have
(despite themselves, in O'Neill's view) had a better idea for the U.S.'s
strategic future.  Whether one agrees with O'Neill or not, the issue is
important in order to understand both the war and the post-war period, so
some mention should be made of the relative Soviet and American
contributions to war in Europe.
        While I have not up until now in my courses discussed this next
issue in very much depth, the same argument could be made in terms of
comparing Henry Wallace's view of the war with the rise of social
democracy in Britain (the Beveridge Report, for example, and the Labour
Party electoral victory in 1945) and elsewhere in Europe, and of course
contrasting Wallace's demise with these European currents.  The impact of
war on industry, economic ideologies, and the like is important both in
terms of the social history of the war and of the post-war period.
        While not quite in the same category of "comparative history," the
relatively positive reception which African-American soldiers experienced
in Britain is an important issue to raise which had a profound impact on
the post-war civil rights movement.

-- Robert Shaffer
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, David C. Fisher wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I am interested to know what others think about a comparative approach to
> World War II.  Is it appropriate for the US survey?  Is there room for it
> on the syllabus?
>
> I am a graduate student studying Russian and U.S. history.  For a number of
> semesters I have worked with undergrad discussion groups as part of the US
> survey.  At present I'm preparing for my oral exams and have been putting a
> lot of thought into how I would teach a US survey class.  It makes good
> sense to me to focus on the fascinating complexities of the homefront
> experience.  However, I'm interested to know if any of you have attempted
> to contextualize that experience in the international perspective of the
> war?  How do we convey to students in an introductory class that the US did
> not fight and win the war by itself?  As I read the list of the top 100
> news events of the 20th century I was reminded of how we Americans have a
> hard time seeing world events from a global perspective.  For example, No.
> 24 on the list describes the D-Day invasion as "the beginning of the end of
> World War II in Europe."  Many would argue (esp. in Russia) that the
> beginning of the end of the war ocurred not in the west but in the east at
> Stalingrad and Kursk.
>
> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.  Back to the books . . .
>
> David Fisher
> Indiana University
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:59:28 -0500
Reply-To:     WORLD WAR II FORUM 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         Kevin Smant 
Subject:      No Ordinary Time

     Has anyone else used Doris Kearns Goodwin's book
NO ORDINARY TIME:  FRANKLIN AND ELEANOR
ROOSEVELT: THE HOME FRONT IN WORLD WAR
II in their upper-division courses on World War II?  [or
in any other course?]

     I've used it three times, and have had pretty good success
with it.   The course I usually teach on the war is officially
titled "America and World War II", and so I use
Goodwin as a kind of textbook.  [which I think is
necessary, given its length].  The book's size
can scare off some students; so I gave them
specific study questions on it, covering each
chapter, for which they would
be responsible when exam time came.  They
were specific enough that students knew what
to look for in reading the book; but broad
enough to ensure that students actually
read it, and didn't resort to skipping and
skimming.

     Students responded well, I think.  I really
enjoyed Goodwin's writing style, and many
students seemed to appreciate it too; beyond that,
students found out a great deal about the
complicated lives of Eleanor and Franklin
[thus getting them beyond the heroic cardboard
cutout version of the two too often given them
in grade school and beyond], and of course
Goodwin goes into a good deal of detail about
the social and cultural changes that the war
wreaked on America's home front; but it does
so in an exceptionally readable, entertaining
way, I thought.

     So if you're looking for something different to
assign concerning the WWII homefront, you might
give NO ORDINARY TIME a try.  But you will need
to give students plenty of time to work through it;
it's a lengthy book.

     Kevin Smant
     Dept. of History
     Indiana University South Bend
     KSmant@iusb.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:26:57 -0800
Reply-To:     WORLD WAR II FORUM 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         Ellen Herman 
Subject:      WWII course materials
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Since I am teaching a course on the Depression and WWII right now, I've
been eager to read the first commentaries submitted to this forum. I was
delighted to learn that at least one person had gotten students to read a
very long book. Congratulations to Kevin Smant! I have to admit that I'd be
reluctant to assign No Ordinary Time simply because of its length, though I
agree that it is wonderfully written and has a great deal to offer students.

I wanted to share something I did just a week ago in class for the first
time that seemed to work quite well. I had students read David Guterson's
novel about Japanese-American internment, Snow Falling on Cedars, and then
compare the events described in the novel with the documents (text and
photographs) about the Bainbridge Island evacuation available at the
University of Washington Library www site:
http://www.lib.washington.edu/exhibits/harmony/Exhibit/bainbridge.html

In addition to promoting knowledge of a key episode in WWII history, I
wanted to provoke the students to think about the blurry line between
history and fiction, between what historians do with history and what
novelists do with history. This is one of the larger themes of my
particular course, but it may be of some interest to other people on this
list who share my habit of using novels and stories as well as more
conventional historical documents. (I think someone mentioned The Dollmaker
in an earlier posting to this list.)

Finally, I would like to ask William Tuttle, and anyone else with ideas
about this, for suggestions about specific sources to use in presenting the
war from the perspective of children--in Europe and Asia as well as in the
United States. I think that doing this would be an excellent way of
considering the concrete impact of "big events" on ordinary lives and also
introducing the idea that age and development matter in how people
experience history and reflect on its significance. I have not done much
along these lines yet myself, but am interested in incorporating these
sorts of perspectives and materials in the future.

Many thanks in advance for any suggestions.




Ellen Herman
Department of History
University of Oregon 97403-1288
(541) 346-3118 phone
(541) 346-4895 fax
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:01:10 -0600
Reply-To:     WORLD WAR II FORUM 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         WILLIAM TUTTLE 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hello WWII Forum,


        I am so pleased that our WWII Forum is up and running.

        Items that seem to be of concern are, first, the best books
to assign and, second, exciting topics to concentrate on .

        I was especially struck by Elizabeth Fones-Wolf's observation
that a largely male class she taught was unhappy both with the emphasis
on social history and with the choice of The Dollmaker for reading. Have
others noticed gender differences in responses to topics/emphases and
reading materials?  How can we effectively deal with such differences so
that everyone is motivated to get the most out of the course?

        Bob Cherny kindly offered to share his WWII course syllabus with
us. I hope that others will do the same.

        I have found that some of the standard WWII texts such as those by
Blum, who doesn't treat women at all, and Polenberg are rather dated.
O'Neill is more up to date, but is perhaps limited in others ways, as is
Goodwin.  Do you assign a WWII text?  What have you found works best?

        Finally, David Fisher makes the excellent suggestion that
comparative approaches can be extremely helpful in understanding the
significance of WWII to US and world history.  Have any of you tried
such an approach?  Was it successful?

        It's election day in Kansas, so I need to go vote.


                                Bill Tuttle
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:06:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Jim Young 
Sender:       WORLD WAR II FORUM 
From:         Jim Young 
Subject:      WWII
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An incident arose during topic selection in a writing class this morning =
that reminded me of Elizabeth Fones-Wolf's experience in gendered =
responses to "war."  A young man in this 60% female class said that he =
wants to research and write on some aspect of the Vietnam Conflict; the =
next person, also male, hesitated -- stating that the previous response =
had caused him to rethink his choice -- and then declared that he would =
like to do some aspect of the American Civil War. From across the room =
came a female voice, which chided "Oh, yeah, guys and their war."  There =
was murmered agreement and an apologetic look from the would-be =
chronicler of an aspect of the Civil War, so I related the experience of =
Fones-Wolf and invited discussion of the matter.  Little followed, =
because few -- none, to judge by the open expressions -- found anything =
unusual about the Fones-Wolf experience.  Go figure.  Jim Young

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An incident arose during topic selection in a = writing class=20 this morning that reminded me of Elizabeth Fones-Wolf's experience in = gendered=20 responses to "war."  A young man in this 60% female class = said=20 that he wants to research and write on some aspect of the Vietnam = Conflict; the=20 next person, also male, hesitated -- stating that the previous response = had=20 caused him to rethink his choice -- and then declared that he would like = to do=20 some aspect of the American Civil War. From across the room came a = female voice,=20 which chided "Oh, yeah, guys and their war."  There was = murmered=20 agreement and an apologetic look from the would-be chronicler of an = aspect of=20 the Civil War, so I related the experience of Fones-Wolf and invited = discussion=20 of the matter.  Little followed, because few -- none, to judge by = the open=20 expressions -- found anything unusual about the Fones-Wolf = experience.  Go=20 figure.  Jim Young
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE64C6.97F3EBC0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:48:12 PDT Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: JULIE LISS Organization: Scripps College Subject: Re: WORLDWARIIFORUM Digest - 1 Mar 1999 to 2 Mar 1999 (#1999-4) I focus on WWII as part of a course on War and Society from 1898 to (sort of) the present. The books I use, or have used, include Terkel's The Good War (always a success); Maureen Honey, Creating Rosie the Riveter; Erenberg and Hirsch, eds. The War in American Culture (a good collection of new essays). Julia E. Liss Chair, Dept. of History Scripps College 1030 Columbia Avenue Claremont, CA 91711 telephone: (909) 607-3541 fax: (909) 621-8323 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:36:56 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: JBrowne865@AOL.COM Subject: Re: William Tuttle's Opening Statement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Professor Fone-Wolf, I recently read Stephen Ambrose's book Citizen Soldiers, which combines military history with social history to some extent. This book examines the experiences and every day life of the GI's in WWII, with special focus in parts on Nisei, African American, and women soldiers. It is an easy read, in my opinion, and is currently being devoured by my father, a military history buff if there ever was one. I have never used it in a class, however. I hope it is useful. Best, Dorothy Browne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:23:23 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: Teaching WWII MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good morning, friends, I was saddened this morning to learn of the death of my boyhood hero, Joe DiMaggio. Joe was not only a magnificent baseball player and quintessential American hero, he also was a veteran of 3 years in WWII. Thinking about Joe DiMaggio and his life in the 1940s made me reflect upon our subject: teaching WWII. Two of the issues that have most concerned us are 1) students' gendered responses to the subject and 2) comparative approaches to teaching the history of WWII. Perhaps one way of dealing with both of these issues is to focus on the American men and women who fought the war, both at home and abroad, including not only DiMaggio and other heroes of the era, but also the grandparents and great-grandparents of our students today. A runaway best-seller is Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation, based on the recollections of some of these grandparents and great-grandparents. In Lawrence, Kansas, where I live, there is an ambitous oral history program in the public schools. Fifth-graders, working with their teachers and with U. of Kansas education students in a Language Arts Methods class, are interviewing man and women who came of age during the Great Depression and during WWII. Their oral histories have been published in the Sunday editions of the local newspaper. These oral histories have illustrated the ways in which women as well as men contributed to the history of this epochal time. The interviews upon which these histories are based were fantastic experiences for the interviewees as well as for their fifth-grade interviewers. Interviewed so far have been a retired professor who was a POW of the Germans for 2 1/2 years and two women who worked in war-production factories. Similarly, my students in an undergraduate honors course are interviewing members of The Greatest Generation. Their interviews show that while the war experience was gendered, women as well as men made significant contributions both on the battlefield and on the homefront. Their interviews also show that while America was victorious in the war, the pyschological toll on Americans -- soldiers and sailors, "Rosie the Riveters" and war brides, teenagers and children -- was often severe with significant lifespan consequences. By looking at these consequences, students can begin to make comparisons with the experiences of people in other countries at war. I have been re-reading some of Steve Ambrose's books, and what has made them so compelling for the American reading public is the first-person testimony by the people who fought the war in Europe. When I began the research for my book "Daddy's Gone to War," I had not anticipated finding so many sad stories -- stories of children's fears of air raid drills, of wives and children overcome with fears about the safety and welfare of husbands and fathers, of fathers returning home, but suffering from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, of the trauma which children experienced upon seeing the first visual images of the Holocaust and the atomic bomb. But when I solicited the homefront children's recollections and eventually received 2,500 responses to my author's query in newspapers and magazines, I was overwhelmed by the complexity of the WWII experience in people's lives. In your classes, have you done oral history projects? How have you gone about doing these? I was pleased to learn from Kevin Smant and Julie Liss about the WWII books which they have used successfully in your courses. What books have others used? And with what success? Elizabeth Fones-Wolf and Jim Young have written about gender issues which they have experienced in teaching WWII. Have others had such experiences? And what are the best ways to deal with them? Ellen Herman asked me for ideas about books, articles, and other specific sources for teaching about the experiences of children on other homefronts and battlefronts during the war. I did encounter some accounts by children who survived the Holocaust, and I did study the British experience, especially Anna Freud, John Bowlby, and other psychiatrists' accounts of the evacuation of English children from cities to the countryside. Michael Caine, the actor, has also written about the sadness he experienced as an evacuee. Beyond these, I really don't know much about the experiences of other children in Europe and Asia during the war. Can anyone help us with this? Finally, thanks to Robert Shaffer for his thoughts on comparative approahces to the teaching of WWII, and especially of the ways in which such approaches can help us to understand better not only WWII but also the Cold War that followed. Can anyone add to the suggestions which he made about the postwar effects of WWII? What about the postwar films about WWII, ranging from "The Best Year of Our Lives" to all the John Wayne and Audie Murphy films to "Saving Private Ryan"? I wonder, for example, how many men who volunteered to fight in Vietnam (e.g., Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July") did so because of glorified images of male heroism in postwar films about WWII. x Thanks for your helpful and thoughtful ideas about teaching the history of WWII. Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:18:27 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Glenn Wiebe Subject: oral history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01BE694D.01A2D740" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BE694D.01A2D740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glenn Wiebe Tabor College Hillsboro, KS 67063 316-947-3121 glennw@tabor.edu I am teaching a freshman level US History 1865 - present class for = the first time and hope to use an oral history assignment as part of a = WWII unit. This makes the discussion and questions concerning the "how = to" of oral history on this list very practical. I am interested in how = others have handled this type of assignment. I am especially curious to = know what others have done in regards to the writing and use of release = forms. =20 Any suggestions? Thank you in advance. glennw ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BE694D.01A2D740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Glenn Wiebe
Tabor = College
Hillsboro,=20 KS  67063
316-947-3121
glennw@tabor.edu
 
    I am=20 teaching a freshman level US History 1865 - present class for the first = time and=20 hope to use an oral history assignment as part of a WWII unit.  = This makes=20 the discussion and questions concerning the "how to" of oral = history=20 on this list very practical.  I am interested in how others have = handled=20 this type of assignment.  I am especially curious to know what = others have=20 done in regards to the writing and use of release forms. =20
 
Any=20 suggestions?
 
Thank you in=20 advance.
 
glennw
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BE694D.01A2D740-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:25:35 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Pt086@AOL.COM Subject: Re: oral history Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Probably the best source open to you is the Veteran's of Foreign Wars. You also might check the phone book for organizations like Pearl Harbor Survivors. Don't overlook local retirement home and hospitals. I've used all of these organizations before with some success. I have found that a lot of veterans will gladly share their experiences. Good luck. Pat Twiford ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 23:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Roy A Rosenzweig Subject: Re: oral history In-Reply-To: <003d01be697f$4d284380$49a6f8c6@simons.tabor.edu.tabor.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I often use oral history assignment in 1865 to present course. I don't worry much about things like release forms. I do worry more about trying to make students write something that is analytical. So, I usually require that they test out propositions and arguments in secondary sources (like Bill Tuttle's book) against the interviews that they do. In general, I require that they use at least two secondary sources with their oral history interviews. Roy Rosenzweig George Mason University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:09:15 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Carl Schulkin Subject: Re: oral history Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree completely with Roy's approach and would like to add that it works well with high school students as well. We have done a required oral history project in our U.S. History survey courses for a number of years, and our students enjoy it. By insisting, as Roy does, that the students have an analytical focus for their investigation and that they correlate what they are told in the interviews with what they find in reputable written sources, we have received good quality papers in response to this assignment. I highly recommend this approach for both high school teachers and college instructors. Carl Schulkin Pembroke Hill School Kansas City, MO 64112 At 11:41 PM 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >I often use oral history assignment in 1865 to present course. I don't >worry much about things like release forms. I do worry more about trying to >make students write something that is analytical. So, I usually require >that they test out propositions and arguments in secondary sources (like >Bill Tuttle's book) against the interviews that they do. In general, I >require that they use at least two secondary sources with their oral >history interviews. >Roy Rosenzweig >George Mason University > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:47:16 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Guocun Yang Organization: Manchester Community Technical College Subject: Re: oral history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning oral history, I would very much like to know how to prepare the students before sending them out to conduct interviews, whether there is a time cap on such projects, or what is the followup, i.e. whether the students share their reports/papers toward the end of the semester. Any comments on these matters will be much appreciated. Guocun Yang Machester, Conn. Carl Schulkin wrote: > I agree completely with Roy's approach and would like to add that it works > well with high school students as well. We have done a required oral > history project in our U.S. History survey courses for a number of years, > and our students enjoy it. By insisting, as Roy does, that the students > have an analytical focus for their investigation and that they correlate > what they are told in the interviews with what they find in reputable > written sources, we have received good quality papers in response to this > assignment. I highly recommend this approach for both high school teachers > and college instructors. > > Carl Schulkin > Pembroke Hill School > Kansas City, MO 64112 > > At 11:41 PM 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I often use oral history assignment in 1865 to present course. I don't > >worry much about things like release forms. I do worry more about trying to > >make students write something that is analytical. So, I usually require > >that they test out propositions and arguments in secondary sources (like > >Bill Tuttle's book) against the interviews that they do. In general, I > >require that they use at least two secondary sources with their oral > >history interviews. > >Roy Rosenzweig > >George Mason University > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:16:01 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Steve Schwartz Subject: A Previous War Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello NMC'ers and Goals 2000 people: I am quite aware that we are into a Second World War Forum, but something interesting has popped up. The New York Historical Society has distributed (FREE) a packet of materials from their exhibit of last year: Militant Metropolis: New York City and the Spanish American War 1898. The packet contains photocopies of images from newspapers, manuscripts and photographs -- primary sources very well reproduced. In addition, there are suggested lesson plans and strategies for implementation. The quality of the material is excellent. If you are interested contact: Cynthia R. Copeland Education Curator The New York Historical Society 170 Central Park West NY, NY 10024-5194 212.873.3400 ext. 218 Steve Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:43:44 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Joseph Robert Adams Subject: Common themes and challenges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7E94298D97A125664FC1D56C" --------------7E94298D97A125664FC1D56C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a teacher in training at North Georgia College and State University working on independent studies of the First and the Second World War. One facet of my study is the teaching of the subject from middle school through junior college levels. In Georgia, the teaching of the World Wars begins in the fifth grade with the following objectives for the First World War that have obvious connections for the Second World War later: (5.12) Recognizes the causes of World War I -nationalism (honoring and promoting one's own nation above all others) -militarism (glorifying war and preparing armed forces for conflict), and -imperialism (creating an empire by dominating other nations). (7) (5.15) Analyzes and explains major causes, events and personalities of World War II - resurgence of nationalism, militarism, and imperialism - major powers and their leaders - Pearl Harbor - the internment of Japanese Americans - the Holocaust, and - VE and VJ Day. (10) As we enter the twentieth century, I wonder how we should approach the teaching of the Second World War from the perspective of the whole century, including the First World War. Children need a deeper narrative of imperialism and nationalism (the "Great Game"of the late nineteenth century, the creation of public schools in industrializing countries to nationalize the general public, Total War and genocide of Armenians by Turkish soldiers in the First World War, rejection of the racial equality claus at the Paris Peace Conference, etc.) For me, the twentieth century and the World Wars reflect our struggle to realize a common humanity and value human rights to protect all. Industrial technology for the first time brought together the global diversity of humanity for the first time in human history. The story of our mutually strange perceptions (as viewed from the present day) of one another as different "races" and ethnic groups and came into our view for the first time, and our new national identities in the expanding world economy needs to be told in as broad a manner as possible. Jumping right into the Second World War, or even an oral history of it, has the potential for perpetuating decades old misperceptions of one another. In my exploration of our teaching of the Second World War in middle and secondary school, the Holocaust, the internment of Japanese Americans and Hiroshima are common themes taught mainly through novels. Sure these themes teach important themes of the atrocity of war and violation of human rights most of us can now take for granted, but we need a broader picture. Genocide is common feature in world history, not only in Germany during the Second World War. Armenian genocide in Turkey during the First World War is just as horrifying and set a precedent for the Second World War. From the twenty-first century, we will have to do better integrating complex stories of the twentieth century into better narratives for all grade levels. And it will be up to college professors in their survey courses to teach the next generation of secondary school teachers. Here are a few books and links to college syllabi that may help. Over Here: The First World War and American Society, by David M. Kennedy (Oxford, 1980). War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War, by John W. Dower (Pantheon, 1987). Japan At War: An Oral History, by Haruko Taya Cook and Theodore F. Cook (The New Press, 1992). Ohio State University (full syllabus for a graduate readings course titled, "New Frontiers in Military History") http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/history/people/grimsley.1/hnew.htm Oberlin College, Ohio (full syllabus for "World War II: Shaping the Twentieth Century") http://www.oberlin.edu/~history/Courses/Hist_170-1998.htm Kansas State University (syllabus for course "World War II") http://www.ksu.edu/history/courses/hist514/coursesyll.htm (specific questions included in the instructions for a take-home exam) http://www.ksu.edu/history/courses/hist514/514home.htm University of Connecticut (syllabus for "History of U.S. Foreign Relations in the 20th Century") http://www.history.uconn.edu/sylfc249.html Looking forward to our continuing discussion, Joseph R. Adams North Georgia College and State University --------------7E94298D97A125664FC1D56C Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a teacher in training at North Georgia College and State University working on independent studies of the First and the Second World War.
One facet of my study is the teaching of the subject from middle school through junior college levels. In Georgia, the teaching of the World Wars begins in the fifth grade with the following objectives for the First World War that have obvious connections for the Second World War later:

(5.12) Recognizes the causes of World War I
-nationalism (honoring and promoting one's own nation above all others)
-militarism (glorifying war and preparing armed forces for conflict), and
-imperialism (creating an empire by dominating other nations). (7)

(5.15) Analyzes and explains major causes, events and personalities of World War II
- resurgence of nationalism, militarism, and imperialism
- major powers and their leaders
- Pearl Harbor
- the internment of Japanese Americans
- the Holocaust, and
- VE and VJ Day. (10)

As we enter the twentieth century, I wonder how we should approach the teaching of the Second World War from the perspective of the whole century, including the First World War. Children need a deeper narrative of imperialism and nationalism (the "Great Game"of the late nineteenth century, the creation of public schools in industrializing countries to nationalize the general public, Total War and genocide of Armenians by Turkish soldiers in the First World War, rejection of the racial equality claus at the Paris Peace Conference, etc.) For me, the twentieth century and the World Wars   reflect our struggle to realize a common humanity and value human rights to protect all. Industrial technology for the first time brought together the global diversity of humanity for the first time in human history. The story of our mutually strange perceptions (as viewed from the present day) of one another as different "races" and ethnic groups and came into our view for the first time, and our new national identities in the expanding world economy needs to be told in as broad a manner as possible. Jumping right into the Second World War, or even an oral history of it, has the potential for perpetuating decades old misperceptions of one another. In my exploration of our teaching of the Second World War in middle and secondary school, the Holocaust, the internment of Japanese Americans and Hiroshima are common themes taught mainly through novels. Sure these themes teach important themes of the atrocity of war and violation of human rights most of us can now take for granted, but we need a broader picture. Genocide is common feature in world history, not only in Germany during the Second World War. Armenian genocide in Turkey during the First World War is just as horrifying and set a precedent for the Second World War. From the twenty-first century, we will have to do better integrating   complex stories of the twentieth century into better narratives for all grade levels. And it will be up to college professors in their survey courses to teach the next generation of secondary school teachers.

Here are a few books and links to college syllabi that may help.

Over Here: The First World War and American Society, by David M. Kennedy (Oxford, 1980).
War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War, by John W. Dower (Pantheon, 1987).
Japan At War: An Oral History, by Haruko Taya Cook and Theodore F. Cook (The New Press, 1992).

Ohio State University (full syllabus for a graduate readings course titled, "New Frontiers in Military History")
http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/history/people/grimsley.1/hnew.htm

Oberlin College, Ohio (full syllabus for "World War II: Shaping the Twentieth Century")
http://www.oberlin.edu/~history/Courses/Hist_170-1998.htm

Kansas State University (syllabus for course "World War II")
http://www.ksu.edu/history/courses/hist514/coursesyll.htm
(specific questions included in the instructions for a take-home exam)
http://www.ksu.edu/history/courses/hist514/514home.htm

University of Connecticut (syllabus for "History of U.S. Foreign Relations in the 20th Century")
http://www.history.uconn.edu/sylfc249.html
 

Looking forward to our continuing discussion,

Joseph R. Adams
North Georgia College and State University --------------7E94298D97A125664FC1D56C-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:08:40 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: History Matters article (fwd) -Reply (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is Bill Tuttle. Our discussions about oral history and how to do it, generations, memory, and (from Joseph R. Adams) the responsibility of as "college professors in their survey courses to teach the next generation of secondary school teachers" have really been fascinating. I think that we as teachers should pay special attention to Joseph Adams' message about our moral responsibility to find meaning in the events of WWII and of the 20th century of which it is a part. One way to do this, it seems to me, is again comparative history, but of a different kind. We have had an excellent discussion about ways in which we can compare the meaning/impact of WWII on the US as compared with the war's impact on the USSR, Japan, Germany, China, etc. But we can also do another kind of comparison -- a comparison across time: that is, comparing the impact of WWII on the US with the impact on the US of the Spanish American War, WWI, Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf War. (Part of what made me think of this was the message we received from Steve Schwartz about the New York Historical Society exhibit materials available on "Militant Metropolis: New York City and the Spanish American War of 1898) I would like to say Hello to my neighbor Carl Schulkin who lives just a few miles east of here in Kansas City and who, with his colleagues at Pembroke Hill School and elsewhere in the country, has done some really innovative things in teaching European and American history. I thought that he, and Roy Rosensweig, gave just the right advice on how to prepare for doing oral history interviews -- above all, having "an analytical focus for their investigation" and being prepared to "correlate what they are told in the interviews with what they find in reputable written sources...." I was pleased to hear about oral history programs being done in retirement centers (and perhaps soon at VFW Halls) and among women (on the "distaff side") as well as men. (I have to confess that I, as a Vietnam era veteran, was invited to join the American Legion, and I did. I haven't re-upped for another year, but I can vouch for the many stories which legionnaires sitting at the bar have to tell.) I do think that one of our duties as teachers in any community is to try to bring together people from different generations. We have talked about Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation and Steve Amrbose's books based on the lives of fighting men of this generation. I want to recommend another book to you, one that places this generation in present time: Mary Pipher's "Another Country: The Emotional Terrain of Our Elders." She describes them as the last generation to have come of age in a communal culture and writes that what defines them, and causes conflcit with their baby-boomer chidlren, is that they are pre-therapy and "pre-irony." It's amazing how one thing leads to another. Yesterday I received an e-mail message about the forthcoming annual meeting of the Kansas History Association, urging me to consult its website for the program. I did and I saw that there is going to be a session, sponsored by the Spring Hill, KS, public schools, entitled "Student WWII Community Website: History and Technology in the Secondary Classroom." It said that the "webmaster" was Drew Farmer (10th grade). I contacted the president of the KHTA for information about this project, and I want to share with you his reply (Let's stay in touch, WWII Forum members): ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:33:20 -0600 From: Sam Dicks To: tuttle@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, pmichaelis@hspo.wpo.state.ks.us Subject: History Matters article (fwd) -Reply Bill* I passed your message on to Dan Lumley in Spring Hill. He is assistant superintendent for instruction there (I think that is his title). At any rate he wrote the Educate America grant which involved the Eisenhower Library and Mack Teasley, some of us at ESU, Ed Tech people at KSU, and several middle school and high school teachers and students. They all did web sites (although not all on WWII). Spring Hill's is one of the most impressive. I don't believe they are on the web yet because of some copyright clearances for political cartoons * they may suppress these with a pass code and get the rest of the site up. It includes several fascinating interviews * one with a Bataan veteran was especially gripping. After the word got around in Spring Hill * veterans and others of that era were contacting them and wanted to be included. Although in Johnson County, Spring Hill is still a rural community, although perhaps not for long. One of the other interesting ones was one about local hostility in a German Lutheran community in WWI (Paola). There were several others also, many very impressive. Dan Lumley should be in contact with you shortly. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:09:00 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: What make the Second World War occur? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keynesians, we want peace, get rid of war! Are you aware that "the crisis of 1930-39 is generally known as the Great Depression"? Keynesians say "the Great Depression was ended by the military Keynesianism of the Second World War." Why do they insist that the Great Depression can be ended by war? It is because they think that war can increase the government's spending. Spending increase means the increase of social needs, which can decrease unemployment and increase GDP and economic growth rate. Keynesians call it "the military Keynesianism". They judge a country's economic growth and economic growth rate by means of GDP. (Keynes's Solution to unemployment was higher public spending which would add to incomes and through the multiplier process lead to more jobs.) It was just because Hitler accepted this viewpoint and Hitler employed state capitalism and central planning very successfully and made Germany into a world economic and military power in 4 short years that the Second World War started. I insist that economic crisis and unemployment can't be solved by means of war. Although it is possible for the military Keynesianism to increase GDP and decrease unemployment, it is impossible for it to raise the people's living standards and increase social wealth, and it is all the more impossible for it to develop social economics. War can only cause the destruction of social wealth and heavy casualties. Nowadays, the American Government still believe in the above-mentioned viewpoint: war ---- the increase of the government's spending ---- the increase of social needs ---- the decrease of unemployment and increase of GDP and economic growth rate. The American Government now still use GDP to measure the economic growth of its own country. Therefore, the military Keynesianism is horrible. It may lead to the world war. Keynesians say: "Any President of USA that tries to get rid of military Keynesianism will be kicked out of office." Nowadays, most countries all over the world use Gross Domestic Product to judge the economic growth of a certain country and, according to this GDP, calculate this country's economic growth rate. This method of calculation is really unfair for poor people, for it fails to judge whether the poor people's living standards have been raised. For example, the yearly economic growth rate of some countries has reached 9-10 percent, but their poor people's living standards haven't been raised. There are still a lot of people suffering from cold and hunger. They can't afford to send their children to school, and, as a result, too many children are deprived of education. Therefore, a new economic theory is badly needed to judge a country's economic growth. My article "On The Development of Social Economy " has established a set of complete economic theories and also a new model of economic growth, by means of which we will be able to judge a country's economic growth accurately and fairly. And I also argue that we should use the living standards of the poor people and the sufficiency of the first and second grade consumption goods as the criterion to judge the economic situations of one country and the achievements of its government. Only when poverty is eliminated, may we say that the social economy is developed. Only when the living standards of the low-income people is improved, will we be able to take just and accurate measurement of the economic growth of a country. So, the economic growth of a certain country can't be measured by GDP. GDP is unscientific. The measurement of social economic development by means of GDP can only lead to the Military Keynesianism, lead to war. How does economic crisis occur? The whole world has publicly agreed that it is caused by overproduction. So when economic crisis appears, we shoud make regulation of market and bankrupt the badly-managed companies with overproduction. In this way, overproduction can be decreased. When those bankrupted companies and unemployed workers take up new jobs, social economy will naturally develop forward. (Please read my articles [2] A model of economy growth, [3] a further explanation of this model, and [5] How to make Regulation of Market? in my homepage ) It is in this way that the USA and West-European countries solve their economic crisis. We shouldn't let Keynesianism hoodwink our eyes and know nothing about how these developed countries solve their economic crisis. Why are the USA and West-European countries still the most economically developed countries in the world though a lot of companies in those countries go bankrupt every year? The key to this question is right here. You might say that Hitler tried to solve economic crisis and unemployment by means of war instead of bankrupting the companies. You, however, should make it clear that, in order to solve economic crisis, you, first of all, have to bankrupt those badly-managed companies, and then the second step that follows is to find new jobs for the unemployed. Before the Second World War broke out, there had been a large quantity of bankrupted companies and unemployed workers. This was the first step towards the solution of economic crisis. Hitler's using war to solve unemployment was the second step, which means that Hitler found jobs of war for the unemployed. So, the problem of unemployment was solved with war. However, we should be aware that, apart from finding jobs of war for the unemployed, we can offer the unemployed other jobs which have nothing to do with war. Another solution is that the government distributes relief fund among the unemployed rather than provide them with jobs. Why should we think that making war upon others is the only way to solve unemployment? Joblessness is far better than jobs of war. Why has the government got no money to distribute relief fund since it is rich enough to make war? It is in order to maintain the world peace, in order to redress a grievance for those dying in the war, in order to prevent the war from occurring again and in order to prevent New Nazism from gaining ground that I am obliged to write this article. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: Jim Young Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Jim Young Subject: War as cause of war, and military Keynesianism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE6ECA.96BA6640" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE6ECA.96BA6640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recent communications bring a couple things to mind. Most, if not = all, of my instructors in 20th century European history (back in the = 1960s) saw World War II as basically an extension of World War I, with = time taken out to raise a new generation of victims. Italy, suffering = from the lie of "the lost peace," changed sides, as did Japan, which no = longer had anything to gain from Germany. Although this is somewhat = schematic, we should keep the point in mind. Of course, one could = ascribe the outbreak of World War I to imperialistic rivalries dating = back far into the 19th century or perhaps earlier and thereby create a = century or more of causal links. For the moment, the 20th century = should suffice. Ju-chang He's point about the dangers of military Keynesianism (If = you build it, they will employ it) is appropriate. Again citing World = War I, the weapons races -- the German fleet-building program, France's = updating Russia's weaponry and technology -- contributed, certainly, to = an assumption that war was a ready option and, in some quarters, the = sooner the better. Chang may not appreciate, however, the political = difficulty of gaining consensus in the U.S. for major economic efforts = that cannot be justified by some real or imagined danger from outside = the country -- consider the fate of national healthcare reform. Very = powerful interests oppose any social and economic basis for meaningful = change, including the rather simple and non-threatening measures = suggested by Ju-chang He. Needless to say, very powerful interests also = oppose significant military reductions because they profit from the = current situation. But, I'm ranging perhaps too far. The upshot is = that the preparation for war and the war were seen as the engines of = post-1940 prosperity, and it was a "lesson" that many took to heart. = Jim Young =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE6ECA.96BA6640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

   Recent communications = bring a=20 couple things to mind.  Most, if not all, of my instructors in 20th = century=20 European history (back in the 1960s) saw World War II as basically an = extension=20 of World War I, with time taken out to raise a new generation of = victims. =20 Italy, suffering from the lie of "the lost peace," changed = sides, as=20 did Japan, which no longer had anything to gain from Germany.  = Although=20 this is somewhat schematic, we should keep the point in mind.  Of = course,=20 one could ascribe the outbreak of World War I to imperialistic rivalries = dating=20 back far into the 19th century or perhaps earlier and thereby create a = century=20 or more of causal links.  For the moment,  the 20th century = should=20 suffice.
   Ju-chang He's point = about the=20 dangers of military Keynesianism (If you build it, they will employ it) = is=20 appropriate.  Again citing World War I, the weapons races -- the = German=20 fleet-building program, France's updating Russia's weaponry and = technology --=20 contributed, certainly, to an assumption that war was a ready option = and, in=20 some quarters, the sooner the better.  Chang may not appreciate, = however,=20 the political difficulty of gaining consensus in the U.S. for major = economic=20 efforts that cannot be justified by some real or imagined danger from = outside=20 the country -- consider the fate of national healthcare reform.  = Very=20 powerful interests oppose any social and economic basis for meaningful = change,=20 including the rather simple and non-threatening measures suggested by = Ju-chang=20 He.  Needless to say, very powerful interests also oppose = significant=20 military reductions because they profit from the current = situation.  But,=20 I'm ranging perhaps too far.  The upshot is that the preparation = for war=20 and the war were seen as the engines of post-1940 prosperity, and it was = a=20 "lesson" that many took to heart.    Jim=20 Young
 
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE6ECA.96BA6640-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:01:06 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Re: War as cause of war, and military Keynesianism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Young wrote: > The upshot is that the preparation for war and the > war were seen as the engines of post-1940 prosperity, > and it was a "lesson" that many took to heart. The reason why the war were seen as the engines of post-1940 prosperity was that they judge a country's economic growth and economic growth rate by means of GDP. They think that there is no economy development without increase of GDP and there is no increase of GDP without war. Nowadays, most countries all over the world use Gross Domestic Product to judge the economic growth of a certain country and, according to this GDP, calculate this country's economic growth rate. This method of calculation is really unfair for poor people, for it fails to judge whether the poor people's living standards have been raised. For example, the yearly economic growth rate of some countries has reached 9-10 percent, but their poor people's living standards haven't been raised. There are still a lot of people suffering from cold and hunger. They can't afford to send their children to school, and, as a result, too many children are deprived of education. Therefore, a new economic theory is badly needed to judge a country's economic growth. My article "On The Development of Social Economy" has established a set of complete economic theories and also a new model of economic growth, by means of which we will be able to judge a country's economic growth accurately and fairly. And I also argue that we should use the living standards of the poor people and the sufficiency of the first and second grade consumption goods as the criterion to judge the economic situations of one country and the achievements of its government. Only when poverty is eliminated, may we say that the social economy is developed. Only when the living standards of the low-income people is improved, will we be able to take just and accurate measurement of the economic growth of a country. So, the economic growth of a certain country can't be measured by GDP. GDP is unscientific. The measurement of social economic development by means of GDP can only lead to the Military Keynesianism, lead to war. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or -----Original Message----- From: Jim Young To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 10:56 PM Subject: War as cause of war, and military Keynesianism >>>>> Recent communications bring a couple things to mind. Most, if not all, of my instructors in 20th century European history (back in the 1960s) saw World War II as basically an extension of World War I, with time taken out to raise a new generation of victims. Italy, suffering from the lie of "the lost peace," changed sides, as did Japan, which no longer had anything to gain from Germany. Although this is somewhat schematic, we should keep the point in mind. Of course, one could ascribe the outbreak of World War I to imperialistic rivalries dating back far into the 19th century or perhaps earlier and thereby create a century or more of causal links. For the moment, the 20th century should suffice. Ju-chang He's point about the dangers of military Keynesianism (If you build it, they will employ it) is appropriate. Again citing World War I, the weapons races -- the German fleet-building program, France's updating Russia's weaponry and technology -- contributed, certainly, to an assumption that war was a ready option and, in some quarters, the sooner the better. Chang may not appreciate, however, the political difficulty of gaining consensus in the U.S. for major economic efforts that cannot be justified by some real or imagined danger from outside the country -- consider the fate of national healthcare reform. Very powerful interests oppose any social and economic basis for meaningful change, including the rather simple and non-threatening measures suggested by Ju-chang He. Needless to say, very powerful interests also oppose significant military reductions because they profit from the current situation. But, I'm ranging perhaps too far. The upshot is that the preparation for war and the war were seen as the engines of post-1940 prosperity, and it was a "lesson" that many took to heart. Jim Young >>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:56:13 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good morning, Good morning from Lawrence, Kansas. The weather is warming up to 70, and it's a wonderfully sunny, blue-sky day here. One issue that we skipped over, I think, is our gendered classes and the observation that what pleases women (e.g., The Dollmaker) might turn off men, who want blood and guts. Dorothy Browne suggested as a compromise Steve Ambrose's Citizen soliders, which combines military and social history "to some extent." Do you have other suggestions? Another of Ambrose's books does this too. I find that his Band of Brothers is not only compelling battlefield history and a great read, but it also has a concluding "lifespan" chapter entitled "Postwar Careers, 1945-1991." In my research and teaching, I have concluded that what is most important in teaching WWII is, first, to deal with people's lives (women, Japanese Americans, African Americans, GIs [especially combat vets], Mexican Americans, Jewish Americans, factory workers and farmers, etc.) and, second, to explore the war's lifespan consequences (not only personal, but also economic, political, social, etc.) as evidenced in postwar America and in the postwar world. Only then, it seems to me, can we explore the questions with which I began this forum: Was WWII "the good war"? Was WWII a "watershed" in American history? In addition to Steve Ambrose's book, another recommendation was the collection of letters edited by David Smith and Judy Litoff, "We're in This War Too." This is a fascinating book. Smith and Litoff have several other collections of letters as well, including a very moving volume entitled Since You Went Away: World War II Letters from American Women on the Home Front. I would be eager to hear from you about other materials which have worked successfully with your students and in your classrooms. What books and articles (non-fiction and fiction, have been popular and have helped you to attain your goals in teaching WWII? And what films and videos have worked? In my honors section of the US history survey since 1865, which I teach to 15 students, we will soon be discussing WWII. I look forward to your ideas and suggestions. Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:37:06 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Mike Nagle Subject: Re: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello- I have had a great deal of success using the book Desert Exile by Yoshiko Uchida. She and her family lived in California before the war and they were all placed into the Japanese Internment camps. Her story is short (about 150 pages) but it is also a very quick read. The students enjoy the subject matter, her writing style, and I think her message is good and straightforward. I have probably assigned it 5-7 times while teaching the US History survey course and I always have very positive responses from the students. Mike Nagle West Shore Community College Scottville, MI > -----Original Message----- > From: WILLIAM TUTTLE [SMTP:tuttle@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 10:56 AM > To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU > Subject: WWII Forum > > Good morning, > > Good morning from Lawrence, Kansas. The weather is warming up to > 70, and it's a wonderfully sunny, blue-sky day here. > > One issue that we skipped over, I think, is our gendered classes > and the observation that what pleases women (e.g., The Dollmaker) might > turn off men, who want blood and guts. Dorothy Browne suggested as a > compromise Steve Ambrose's Citizen soliders, which combines military and > social history "to some extent." > > Do you have other suggestions? > > Another of Ambrose's books does this too. I find that his Band > of Brothers is not only compelling battlefield history and a great read, > but it also has a concluding "lifespan" chapter entitled "Postwar Careers, > 1945-1991." In my research and teaching, I have concluded that what is > most important in teaching WWII is, first, to deal with people's lives > (women, Japanese Americans, African Americans, GIs [especially combat > vets], Mexican Americans, Jewish Americans, factory workers and > farmers, etc.) and, second, to explore the war's lifespan consequences > (not only personal, but also economic, political, social, etc.) as > evidenced in postwar America and in the postwar world. Only then, it > seems to me, can we explore the questions with which I began this forum: > > Was WWII "the good war"? > > Was WWII a "watershed" in American history? > > In addition to Steve Ambrose's book, another recommendation was > the collection of letters edited by David Smith and Judy Litoff, "We're in > This War Too." This is a fascinating book. Smith and Litoff have > several other collections of letters as well, including a very moving > volume entitled Since You Went Away: World War II Letters from American > Women on the Home Front. > > I would be eager to hear from you about other materials which > have worked successfully with your students and in your classrooms. What > books and articles (non-fiction and fiction, have been popular > and have helped you to attain your goals in teaching WWII? And what films > and videos have worked? > > In my honors section of the US history survey since 1865, which I > teach to 15 students, we will soon be discussing WWII. I look forward to > your ideas and suggestions. > > > Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Roy A Rosenzweig Subject: Re: WWII Forum In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wanted to mention another excellent first person WWII document that is available on the "History Matters" web site. It is "A G.I. Artist's Sketchpad, 1943-1944." It includes 24 sketches done by artist Ben Hurwitz during during his two years in North Africa and Italy. It is accompanied by the artist's commentary transcribed by historian Joshua Brown in November 1996. You can find the sketches at: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/text/s1.html You can search for WWII documents more generally at http://chnm.gmu.edu/us/search.taf best, Roy =============================================================== | Roy Rosenzweig | | Dept. of History, MS-3G1 Home: | | George Mason University 511 N. Jackson St. | | Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 Arlington, VA 22201 | | W: 703-993-1247 H: 703-522-2334 | | email: rrosenzw@gmu.edu Fax (work): 703-993-1251| | Director, Center for History & New Media | | http://chnm.gmu.edu | =============================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:18:10 -0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: "Robert W. Cherny" Subject: student research on the domestic impact of WWII In-Reply-To: <199903170456.UAA02154@diana.sfsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I must say that I've not encountered the gender differences that others have. However, it is also the case that my course, in its title and in its catalog description, is explicitly focused on the domestic impact of the war. My course is also an undergraduate research seminar, in which students know from the beginning that they will focus much of their attention on a paper based on primary sources. The great advantage of focusing a research seminar on the domestic impact of the war on California and the West has been that every student (so far) as been able to find a topic of personal interest, whether that personal interest be in women's history, African-American history, Latino history, Asian-American history, labor history, or the history of the left. I've gotten excellent papers on the emergence of new religious organizations among African-American migrants to the shipyards of Richmond, women shipyard workers at Marinship, the experience of Latinos in the southern California shipyards, childcare and juvenile delinquency, employment discrimination (one paper on women, one on African-Americans), wildcat strikes (specifically--and successfully--challenging the argument that they were largely racially motivated), the racially integrated public housing at Marin City, the 1942 and 1944 elections, a comparison of efforts by ILWU Locals 6 and 10 in their efforts to integrate the wartime newcomers, a study of who replaced the interned Japanese Americans on farms in the Central Valley, the position of the California CP on Japanese internment, and the role of the Federal Reserve Bank as trustee for Japanese-American property owners. By focusing on both the domestic impact and on the need to use primary sources, I've just not encountered students who wanted to do military history topics. In this, I have the advantage of being close to some good research archives--the Labor Archives on my campus has both union and governmental records relating to the war; the National Archives branch in San Bruno, a short distance from my campus, has a wealth of federal records; and the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley. Bob Cherny ===================================================================== Robert W. Cherny Website: http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cherny/ Professor of History Voice and messages: (415) 338-7561 San Francisco State University Campus FAX: (415) 338-7539 San Francisco, CA 94132 E-mail: ===================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:16:39 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think we all appreciate the need for a somewhat comprehensive history of American at war in order to teach a course on the history of WWII, such as the volumes by O'Neill, Blum, and Polenberg. Bill O'Neill's A Democracy at War has been praised in our forum, as has Doris Kearns Goodwin's No Ordinary Time. I think the value of the O'Neill book is that tells the story of "America's fight at home and abroad." One thing about the O'Neill book does irritate me and that's his decision to use the archaic word "Negroes" in a book published in 1993. But there are other kinds of books about the war. Some are highly personal and deeply involved and totally moving memoirs of the war. Many of these sell in very limted numbers. Some are out of print. Others have never been published in paperback. Thanks to Mike Nagle and Roy Rosenzweig for two such titles: Yoshiko Uchiga's Desert Exile and Ben Hurwitz's A GI Artist's Sketchpad, 1943-1944. Let me add my favorite: Margaret Sams, Forbidden Family: A Wartime Memoir of the Philippines, 1941-1945 (U. of Wisconsin Press, 1989). Margaret Sams and her husband were captured by the Japanese early in the war. Her husband survived the Bataan Death March and was a POW. Margaret and her 4-year-old son were interned in Manilla from 1942-44. While there, she met a man named Jerry --a very heroic American POW in the camp--and she fell in love with him. They made love once, the night before he was to be shipped to the Los Banos camp in another part of the Philippines. She became pregnant, did not know whether she would ever see Jerry again, or whether her husband was alive; she could have had an abortion performed by a doctor/POW in her camp, yet she decided to have the baby. In 1944 she and her son and her baby daughter were later sent to Los Banos, and reunited with Jerry, who also met his daughter for the first time. Margaret also learned in the camp that her husband had been killed when the Japanese POW ship he was on was bombed by American planes and sunk. Margaret wrote her story after the war; it is at once a love story, a confession (the guilt she felt about her husband was, and probably still is, overwhelming), and an apologia (she wrote her memoir for her children and grandchildren so that they could understand what happened). My summary doesn't begin to do justice to this book. It's very powerful It's edited by Lynn Z. Bloom of UConn and it's beautifully written. Are there are other obscure but great books that we as teachers of WWII ought to know about? Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Robert Shaffer Subject: Re: WWII Forum In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I, too, would like to recommend the use of Uchida's _Desert Exile_, although I have not used it yet for a class assignment. One of the main attractions of the book for a college audience is that Uchida in 1942 was about the same age as most of our undergraduates, and she details the way the war interrupted the kinds of activities that our students would be doing. In response to Bill Tuttle's call for other books that deserve greater attention, I would like to call the attention of the list-members to a memoir by Milt Felsen, _The Anti-Warrior_, published by University of Iowa Press. (I hasten to add for disclosure purposes that Felsen is the first cousin of my mother, so I have a personal interest in his story.) The reason Felsen's autobiography is of broader interest is that he describes his involvement with the left-wing, antiwar movement at the University of Iowa in the 1930s, Oxford pledge and all, and then proceeds to describe his involvement as a soldier both in the Lincoln Brigade of the Spanish civil War and in the OSS during World War II. Hence, the title is partly ironic in showing the pull toward war of an "anti-warrior." Felsen's discussion of the relationship between the OSS and the left is particularly interesting, as are his descriptions of the politics of several covert operations during World War II. Felsen was a POW first in Italy and then in Germany, and the comments on being a Jewish prisoner are also interesting. I doubt that most professors would be able to assign the entire book in a class on World War II, as about half of it covers the pre-war period, and I myself have only provided photocopies of a few sections of it for my students. One section that is guaranteed to elicit strong student interest is a description of OSS (actually, the precursor to the OSS at that time) personnel dressed in Germany military uniforms on the streets of Washington, D.C. in 1940 (I believe) asking passersby where the telephone company building and the police headquarters were, and being given directions very politely. -- Robert Shaffer Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:07:57 -0600 Reply-To: abaltaki@lsue.edu Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Anthony Baltakis Organization: Louisiana State University - Eunice Subject: Re: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With regards to books used in classes on ww11, I have used The White Rose by Inge Scholl. It is an account of a resistence movement led by students at the University of Munich during the second world war. Students in my classes have responded to the book in a positive manner. Indeed the book provoked quite a discussion in class. Tony Baltakis, Louisiana State University at Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:54:47 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Spring break at the University of Kansas starts today, but I will be at my computer hoping to hear from you. I had looked forward to watching some great college basketball on TV, but since Kansas was beaten in overtime last Sunday by Kentucky, I've lost interest. Last Friday Joseph Adams sent us addresses for websites where syllabi on WWII were available, at Ohio State, Oberlin, Kansas State and UConn. And this week Roy Rosenzweig sent other relevant website addresses. I think we've just scratched the surface of important WWW resources for teaching the history of WWII. Can you help us with the addresses of other relevant websites??? Thanks. Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:42:51 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: JBrowne865@AOL.COM Subject: Re: WWII Forum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I visited a very interesting WWII oral history website this summer; I believe it was www.thedropzone.org. It featured mostly recollections of soldiers' experiences during military operations such as the invasion of Normandy, but it may be useful nonetheless. Dorothy Browne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:46:52 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keynesian who spread lies! Keynesian is spreading lies that the Great Depression was ended by Keynesianism and Keynesianism can solve economic crisis. It is true that after coming to power, Hitler launched a program of massive public works and military expansion, financed by borrowing, which may look like Keynesianism. It is true that as soon as the Second World War started, the labor statistics begin to sky-rocket upwards and the problem of unemployment was solved, which may look like the Great Depression was ended by Keynesianism. But it is wrong! How does economic crisis occur? The whole world has publicly agreed that it is caused by overproduction. So when economic crisis appears, we shoud make regulation of market and bankrupt the badly-managed companies with overproduction. In this way, overproduction can be decreased. When those bankrupted companies and unemployed workers take up new jobs, social economy will naturally develop forward. (Please read my articles [2] A model of economy growth, [3] a further explanation of this model, and [5] How to make Regulation of Market? in my homepage ) It is in this way that the USA and West-European countries solve their economic crisis. We shouldn't let Keynesianism hoodwink our eyes and know nothing about how these developed countries solve their economic crisis. Why are the USA and West-European countries still the most economically developed countries in the world though a lot of companies in those countries go bankrupt every year? The key to this question is right here. You might say that Hitler tried to solve economic crisis and unemployment by means of war instead of bankrupting the companies. You, however, should make it clear that, in order to solve economic crisis, you, first of all, have to bankrupt those badly-managed companies, and then the second step that follows is to find new jobs for the unemployed. Before the Second World War broke out, there had been a large quantity of bankrupted companies and unemployed workers. This was the first step towards the solution of economic crisis. Hitler's using war to solve unemployment was the second step, which means that Hitler found jobs of war for the unemployed. So, the problem of unemployment was solved with war. However, we should be aware that, apart from finding jobs of war for the unemployed, we can offer the unemployed other jobs which have nothing to do with war. Another solution is that the government distributes relief fund among the unemployed rather than provide them with jobs. Why should we think that making war upon others is the only way to solve unemployment? Joblessness is far better than jobs of war. Why has the government got no money to distribute relief fund since it is rich enough to make war? Many countries all the world, unfortunately, still use Keynesianism to solve their economic crises. Japan, for example, is still solving its economic crisis with increasing their government's spending today. In my opinion, the only way to solve economic crisis is to allow the badly-managed and salary-defaulting companies to go bankrupt and the workers be out of job, to issue relief funds to the unemployed, and to encourage and help them to seek for new jobs. At the beginning of this century, numberless crises once took place in the USA and West-European countries. Their governments are achieved great successes on solving their crises every time they make for use of the above-mentioned solutions. And they have kept utilizing this solutions up till now. It is because they have been doing so to eliminate economic crises, their economy is universally acknowledged as the strongest in the world. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:27:17 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Kevin Smant Subject: another book suggestion Since we've been tossing out our favorite books to use in our World War II courses [a very useful thing, by the way], let me throw out another one. I have frequently used the following book with great success: Milton Mayer, THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FREE [University of Chicago Press, 1954, 1966, and still in print]. What Mayer did was to go and visit Germany in 1951-1952, when [obviously] many Germans who had experienced Nazism and even supported it were still around, and their memories of it still fresh. He somewhat disguised his identity---Mayer actually was Jewish, and was of course very anti-Nazi. But he portrayed himself as simply a writer doing a book on Germany; this allowed him to get to know, and be able to very extensively talk with, some 10 ordinary Germans, all of whom had in some way supported Nazi Germany. He was able to ask them some very pertinent questions: what did you think of Hitler? Why did you support Nazism? What about what happened to the Jews---why didn't you or somebody _do_ something about it? And he was able, I think, to get very honest and fascinating responses out of them. The book is not at all a mere transcription of these discussions. Instead, Mayer weaves what he found into a coherent, topical narrative, with each chapter dealing with a different issue, and with Mayer offering quotes from his discussions with his German friends to illustrate his conclusions.. To me, it's fascinating. My students have always gotten a lot out of it too. I think this kind of work can do two important things. First, these Germans to whom Mayer spoke were ordinary people. In many ways, I think they remind students of people they know in America. What they then see is that, partly due to the Germans' own choices, and partly due to forces maybe beyond their control, ordinary Germans soon got caught up in something---Nazism--- that quickly spiraled beyond what anyone had imagined. Crucial to this is the realization that, for ordinary people, it becomes so easy just to go along with it. "What would you have done?", demanded many of the Germans in Mayer's book. Indeed, what would we have done, had we been in those Germans' shoes? It makes all of us look more closely at ourselves. Instead of merely engaging in cheap, too-easy moral denunciations of the Germans, it makes us realize: there but for the grace of God go I. On the other hand, it also gives us a look into the horrors of Nazism, its unique horrors. It was a regime that was powerful enough to simply make many "undesirables"---Jews, Communists, etc.---disappear; to engage in barbarities like Kristallnacht; and to have so intimidated the German people that, despite misgivings, they went along with it. I'd disagree with some of my colleagues on this list; I don't know that we should focus so much on drawing connections and likenesses between Adolf Hitler's genocide against the Jews, and other 20th century massacres. The Nazis killed, after all, 6 million Jews, not to mention others---Russian POWs, Gypsies, the mentally retarded, homosexuals, etc. etc. To me, Nazi genocide stands alone. It is a great horror, and especially so because so many ordinary people _cooperated_ with it. Yet, we must try to look into that darkness and seek at least a little understanding of it [I say a little, because I doubt our understanding of the Holocaust will ever be complete]. Mayer's book gives us yet another way to look.... And I suppose, ultimately, that I think a Hitler could come again. And that it could happen here. It could happen, I think, if our citizens act like some of those in Mayer's book---if they think that politics doesn't concern them, if they simply withdraw from it, or if they simply go along with whatever the government does, assuming that it knows best. That's the kind of climate in which a Hitler can thrive. That's the lesson that the story of Hitler and Nazism can teach us. If we can getour students to listen, that is. Off my soapbox now. :+)) Kevin Smant Dept. of History Indiana Univ. South Bend KSmant@iusb.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:49:40 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: "Weitzel, Ronald" Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! Whether, in the midst of a depression, the government finds jobs for people in the (public) war production sector or in the (public) non-war production sector is probably irrelevant in the sense that both are "Keynesian" solutions to the problem of unemployment. To Mr. Ju-chang: As you continue to work on your English language you will learn of the need to avoid such constructions as "liars" and "hoodwinked." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:36:38 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Peppre@AOL.COM Subject: Parades Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit As with most victorious armies who returned home, the Armed Services paraded to great crowds and were involved in a myriad of parade displays. How does the homefront response to military parades during WWII and in the aftermath compare to military parades through out history? In Rome, it was a display of might and power, was that the same feeling during WWII? P. Epprecht ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:59:32 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Weitzel, Ronald, Do you think that the Great Depression was ended by Keynesianism and Keynesianism can solve economic crisis? Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or -----Original Message----- From: Weitzel, Ronald To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 1:59 AM Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! >Whether, in the midst of a depression, the government finds jobs for people >in the (public) war production sector or in the (public) non-war production >sector is probably irrelevant in the sense that both are "Keynesian" >solutions to the problem of unemployment. > >To Mr. Ju-chang: As you continue to work on your English language you will >learn of the need to avoid such constructions as "liars" and "hoodwinked." > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:16:55 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good morning, Thanks so much for your book suggestions, all of which sound as though they would work extremely well in WWII courses. A couple of you suggested Yoshiko Uchida's Desert Exile, which has some of the same attributes as Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston and James D. Houston's Farewell to Manzanar. What is so powerful about Farewell to Manzanar is its description of the impact of internment on the author's family, particularly the descent of her father into alcoholism as he loses his authority as head of the family. Identity issues also figure powerfully in the book. For the author, there is her postwar desire to be invisible, a desire that was later superseded by her desire to be a cheerleader and perhaps a beauty contest winner. But, as she wrote, "It was a pride that Papa didn't share. While I was striving to become Miss America of 1947, he was wishing I'd be Miss Hiroshima of 1904." Like so much of what I read about ethnicity and cultural resistance to assimilation and acculturation, this book makes me think of the many insights I have learned from reading Herb Gutman's seminal essay, "Work, Culture, and Society in Industrializing America, 1815-1919," AHR (June 1973). This causes me to ask a couple of questions: Do you know of other WWII-era memoirs that deal with this theme? And are there such books or articles that explore either women's or African Americans' personal experiences during WWII? Despite the importance of these experiences, there seems to be a paucity of such literature. Thanks. Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:14:52 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: WWII Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to Bob Cherny for his letter about the research course he offers which focuses on the domestic impact of WWII on California and on the West. His students have done research on a variety of topics involving the history of women, African Americans, Latinos, and Asian Americans, as well as labor history and the history of the left. Bob's very helpful message gave exciting examples of specific topics which his students have undertaken. Bob pointed that he was blessed to be in area rich with primary sources. He is. But it seems to me that since WWII touched almost all communities in one way or another, most all of us are in a position to encourage our students to undertake original research topics on the domestic impact of the war, as well as on the impact of the war on the men and women who fought it, including Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. In Lawrence, KS, where I live, there are rich resources available for studying: a German POW camp that was located here; the lives of the thousands of women who worked at the nearby Sunflower Ammunitition Works, including solutions to their child-care problems; war-inspired civil rights protests at the University of Kansas, including the organization of, and sit-ins by, a chapter of CORE; V-12, ASTP, and other training programs at the university, as well as students' and families' lives under the postwar GI Bill; etc. Among our resources are the U. of Kansas Archives, the Kansas Collection, local historical societies and community museums, local newspapers, and, of course, the memories of the women and men involved. We discussed oral history projects earlier, and recommendations were made about doing interviews to understand the impact of the war on people's lives. What have been your experiences with student research projects? What sorts of topics have they pursued? What resources did they find helpful? Thanks. Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:32:23 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weitzel, Ronald, Why you don't give me any reply to my post yesterday? Do you think it is true that Keynesian is spreading lies that the Great Depression was ended by Keynesianism and Keynesianism can solve economic crisis? Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or -----Original Message----- From: chang To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! >Dear Weitzel, Ronald, >Do you think that the Great Depression was ended by Keynesianism and >Keynesianism can solve economic crisis? > >Sincerely, >Ju-chang He > >SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA >Welcome to visit My Home Page at > >or >-----Original Message----- >From: Weitzel, Ronald >To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU > >Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 1:59 AM >Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! > > >>Whether, in the midst of a depression, the government finds jobs for people >>in the (public) war production sector or in the (public) non-war production >>sector is probably irrelevant in the sense that both are "Keynesian" >>solutions to the problem of unemployment. >> >>To Mr. Ju-chang: As you continue to work on your English language you will >>learn of the need to avoid such constructions as "liars" and "hoodwinked." >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:35:12 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! In-Reply-To: <007c01be75f6$9c5d08e0$85685dcb@juchang> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To Ju-chang He et al., I have enjoyed the debate over "Keynesianism," and I would like to give some thoughts about how I teach this aspect of my courses on the 1930s and 1940s. First, I believe that most historians subscribe to the interpretation that it was not the New Deal, but preparedness for WWII, that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. Historians point to the progress which the New Deal made in reducing joblessness up to 1937, when President Roosevelt reverted to his budget-balancing fiscal conservatism and ordered drastic cutbacks in government spending. At the same time the Federal Reserve Board, concerned about a 3.6% inflation rate, tightened credit. The two actions sent the economy into a tailspin: unemplyment climbed from 7.7 million in 1937 to 10.4 million in 1938. Soon Roosevelt resumed deficit financing. Alan Brinkley, in The End of Reform (1995), has written that in 1937-38 the New Deal was in trouble, and there ensued a wide-ranging ideological struggle to chart the future of the liberal reform movement. Some New Dealers urged vigorous trustbusting; others advocated the resurrection of national economic planning that had existed under the National Recovery Administration. But in the end, Roosevelt rejected these alternatives and instead chose deficit financing as a quick fix to stimulate consumer demand and create jobs. With the massive deficit financing that paid for WWII, this debate became mute. I do think that importance of WWII in establishing deficit financing in times of emergency has been somewhat overlooked. By blending New Deal ideology and wartime urgency, the federal government assumed the responsibility for ensuring prosperity and stepping in when capitalism faltered. In other words, I would re-title the book which Steve Fraser and Gary Gerstle edited as The New Deal-WWII Order. I believe that a more important issue related to the financing of the war is the development of government contracting and the establishment of what Dwight Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex" -- to which I would add higher education and science. I agree with Jim Young's observations about "the dangers of military Keynesianism (If you build it, they will employ it)." For this aspect of the military-industrial complex, I would recommend a couple of books: Michael Sherry's In The Shadow of War: The United States Since the 1930s and Ann Markusen et al., The Rise of the Gunbelt: The Military Revamping of Industrial America. How do you teach this significant aspect of the history of WWII and postwar America during the Cold War? Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Guocun Yang Organization: Manchester Community Technical College Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am enjoying reading the contributions and debates. I teach American history at a two year college and would like to ask anyone to recommend a short book (under 200 pages) you have used and liked in undergraduate courses on any of these topics: WWII, the New Deal, the Civil Rights movement, or women. Your help is much appreciated. Guocun Yang Manchester Com-Tech College, CT WILLIAM TUTTLE wrote: > To Ju-chang He et al., > > I have enjoyed the debate over "Keynesianism," and I would like to > give some thoughts about how I teach this aspect of my courses on the > 1930s and 1940s. > > First, I believe that most historians subscribe to the > interpretation that it was not the New Deal, but preparedness for WWII, > that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. Historians point to the > progress which the New Deal made in reducing joblessness up to 1937, when > President Roosevelt reverted to his budget-balancing fiscal conservatism > and ordered drastic cutbacks in government spending. At the same time the > Federal Reserve Board, concerned about a 3.6% inflation rate, tightened > credit. The two actions sent the economy into a tailspin: unemplyment > climbed from 7.7 million in 1937 to 10.4 million in 1938. Soon Roosevelt > resumed deficit financing. > > Alan Brinkley, in The End of Reform (1995), has written that in > 1937-38 the New Deal was in trouble, and there ensued a wide-ranging > ideological struggle to chart the future of the liberal reform movement. > Some New Dealers urged vigorous trustbusting; others advocated the > resurrection of national economic planning that had existed under the > National Recovery Administration. But in the end, Roosevelt rejected > these alternatives and instead chose deficit financing as a quick fix to > stimulate consumer demand and create jobs. > > With the massive deficit financing that paid for WWII, this debate > became mute. I do think that importance of WWII in establishing deficit > financing in times of emergency has been somewhat overlooked. By blending > New Deal ideology and wartime urgency, the federal government assumed the > responsibility for ensuring prosperity and stepping in when capitalism > faltered. > > In other words, I would re-title the book which Steve Fraser and > Gary Gerstle edited as The New Deal-WWII Order. > > I believe that a more important issue related to the financing of > the war is the development of government contracting and the establishment > of what Dwight Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex" -- to > which I would add higher education and science. > > I agree with Jim Young's observations about "the dangers of > military Keynesianism (If you build it, they will employ it)." For this > aspect of the military-industrial complex, I would recommend a couple of > books: Michael Sherry's In The Shadow of War: The United States Since the > 1930s and Ann Markusen et al., The Rise of the Gunbelt: The Military > Revamping of Industrial America. > > How do you teach this significant aspect of the history of WWII > and postwar America during the Cold War? > > Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:15:42 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: DAugust101@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Civil Rights Movement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit TO: Guocun Yang There is a complete teaching package in text and video put out by the American Civil Rights Movement. Schools can receive one FREE copy of the kit by writing: American Civil Rights Movement. Teaching Tolerance 400 Washington Ave Montogmery, AL 36104 This kit comes with a video and text package which contains 108 pages of history, profiles, and photos. There is a teacher's guide also with the package. The booklet includes many of those who died in the name of freedom. I got mine a few years ago and use it every year in my Am. Hist. class. Diane Augustyniak Illinois ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:29:57 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WILLIAM TUTTLE wrote: > First, I believe that most historians subscribe to the >interpretation that it was not the New Deal, but preparedness for WWII, >that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. It is true that preparedness for WWII ended the problem of unemployment in the US. In my opinion, it is not Keynesianism, but the Second World War, that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. Why? Because any war can solve the problem of unemployment notwithstanding there is no Keynesianism. Because all people must work hard when a war started. Therefore It is wrong to argue that the Great Depression was ended by the military Keynesianism of the Second World War. It is war itself that solve the problem of unemployment, not Keynesianism. However, we should be aware that, apart from finding jobs of war for the unemployed, we can offer the unemployed other jobs which have nothing to do with war. Another solution is that the government distributes relief fund among the unemployed rather than provide them with jobs. Why should we think that making war upon others is the only way to solve unemployment? Joblessness is far better than jobs of war. Why has the government got no money to distribute relief fund since it is rich enough to make war? You might say that Hitler tried to solve economic crisis and unemployment by means of war instead of bankrupting the companies. You, however, should make it clear that, in order to solve economic crisis, you, first of all, have to bankrupt those badly-managed companies, and then the second step that follows is to find new jobs for the unemployed. Before the Second World War broke out, there had been a large quantity of bankrupted companies and unemployed workers. This was the first step towards the solution of economic crisis. Hitler's using war to solve unemployment was the second step, which means that Hitler found jobs of war for the unemployed. So, the problem of unemployment was solved with war and economic crisis is solved by my solution. Therefore in my opinion, the only way to solve economic crisis is to allow the badly-managed and salary-defaulting companies to go bankrupt and the workers be out of job, to issue relief funds to the unemployed, and to encourage and help them to seek for new jobs. Therefore Keynesianism can't solve any economic crisis at all. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or -----Original Message----- From: WILLIAM TUTTLE To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:32 PM Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! >To Ju-chang He et al., > > I have enjoyed the debate over "Keynesianism," and I would like to >give some thoughts about how I teach this aspect of my courses on the >1930s and 1940s. > > First, I believe that most historians subscribe to the >interpretation that it was not the New Deal, but preparedness for WWII, >that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. Historians point to the >progress which the New Deal made in reducing joblessness up to 1937, when >President Roosevelt reverted to his budget-balancing fiscal conservatism >and ordered drastic cutbacks in government spending. At the same time the >Federal Reserve Board, concerned about a 3.6% inflation rate, tightened >credit. The two actions sent the economy into a tailspin: unemplyment >climbed from 7.7 million in 1937 to 10.4 million in 1938. Soon Roosevelt >resumed deficit financing. > > Alan Brinkley, in The End of Reform (1995), has written that in >1937-38 the New Deal was in trouble, and there ensued a wide-ranging >ideological struggle to chart the future of the liberal reform movement. >Some New Dealers urged vigorous trustbusting; others advocated the >resurrection of national economic planning that had existed under the >National Recovery Administration. But in the end, Roosevelt rejected >these alternatives and instead chose deficit financing as a quick fix to >stimulate consumer demand and create jobs. > > With the massive deficit financing that paid for WWII, this debate >became mute. I do think that importance of WWII in establishing deficit >financing in times of emergency has been somewhat overlooked. By blending >New Deal ideology and wartime urgency, the federal government assumed the >responsibility for ensuring prosperity and stepping in when capitalism >faltered. > > In other words, I would re-title the book which Steve Fraser and >Gary Gerstle edited as The New Deal-WWII Order. > > I believe that a more important issue related to the financing of >the war is the development of government contracting and the establishment >of what Dwight Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex" -- to >which I would add higher education and science. > > I agree with Jim Young's observations about "the dangers of >military Keynesianism (If you build it, they will employ it)." For this >aspect of the military-industrial complex, I would recommend a couple of >books: Michael Sherry's In The Shadow of War: The United States Since the >1930s and Ann Markusen et al., The Rise of the Gunbelt: The Military >Revamping of Industrial America. > > How do you teach this significant aspect of the history of WWII >and postwar America during the Cold War? > > > Bill Tuttle > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:43:29 CST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Art Pitz Organization: Black Hawk College Subject: Re: Civil Rights Movement In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for the information! I am Professor Arthur Pitz at Black Hawk College in Moline, Illinois. Do you have a phone number and/or email address for this agency that I could contact more directly? Thanks for any help you can provide. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:05:33 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Guocun Yang Organization: Manchester Community Technical College Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Mr. He et al: Keynesian theory involves fiscal policy, especially in the form of deficit spending. Preparedness for WWII reflects this spending as do some welfare programs in that they help maintain consumer buying power. But the problem of unemployment can not be solved by any war. Nor can it be fully achieved through government relief. Handing out relief money rarely creates jobs; non-charity spending usually does. So preparedness is Keynesian and war as such is not. If "help" means government spending so as to stimulate the economy, that is Keynesian. All things considered, the American recovery was due to Keynesianism rather than the war. Guocun Yang Manchester, Conn. chang wrote: > WILLIAM TUTTLE wrote: > > First, I believe that most historians subscribe to the > >interpretation that it was not the New Deal, but preparedness for WWII, > >that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. > > It is true that preparedness for WWII ended the problem of unemployment in > the US. In my opinion, it is not Keynesianism, but the Second World War, that > ended the problem of unemployment in the US. Why? Because any war can solve > the problem of unemployment notwithstanding there is no Keynesianism. Because > all people must work hard when a war started. Therefore It is wrong to argue > that the Great Depression was ended by the military Keynesianism of the > Second World War. It is war itself that solve the problem of unemployment, > not Keynesianism. > > However, we should be aware that, apart from finding jobs of war for the > unemployed, we can offer the unemployed other jobs which have nothing to do > with war. Another solution is that the government distributes relief fund > among the unemployed rather than provide them with jobs. Why should we think > that making war upon others is the only way to solve unemployment? > Joblessness is far better than jobs of war. Why has the government got no > money to distribute relief fund since it is rich enough to make war? > > You might say that Hitler tried to solve economic crisis and unemployment by > means of war instead of bankrupting the companies. You, however, should make > it clear that, in order to solve economic crisis, you, first of all, have to > bankrupt those badly-managed companies, and then the second step that follows > is to find new jobs for the unemployed. Before the Second World War broke > out, there had been a large quantity of bankrupted companies and unemployed > workers. This was the first step towards the solution of economic crisis. > Hitler's using war to solve unemployment was the second step, which means > that Hitler found jobs of war for the unemployed. So, the problem of > unemployment was solved with war and economic crisis is solved by my > solution. > > Therefore in my opinion, the only way to solve economic crisis is to allow > the badly-managed and salary-defaulting companies to go bankrupt and the > workers be out of job, to issue relief funds to the unemployed, and to > encourage and help them to seek for new jobs. > > Therefore Keynesianism can't solve any economic crisis at all. > > Sincerely, > Ju-chang He > > SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA > Welcome to visit My Home Page at > > or > -----Original Message----- > From: WILLIAM TUTTLE > To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:32 PM > Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! > > >To Ju-chang He et al., > > > > I have enjoyed the debate over "Keynesianism," and I would like to > >give some thoughts about how I teach this aspect of my courses on the > >1930s and 1940s. > > > > First, I believe that most historians subscribe to the > >interpretation that it was not the New Deal, but preparedness for WWII, > >that ended the problem of unemployment in the US. Historians point to the > >progress which the New Deal made in reducing joblessness up to 1937, when > >President Roosevelt reverted to his budget-balancing fiscal conservatism > >and ordered drastic cutbacks in government spending. At the same time the > >Federal Reserve Board, concerned about a 3.6% inflation rate, tightened > >credit. The two actions sent the economy into a tailspin: unemplyment > >climbed from 7.7 million in 1937 to 10.4 million in 1938. Soon Roosevelt > >resumed deficit financing. > > > > Alan Brinkley, in The End of Reform (1995), has written that in > >1937-38 the New Deal was in trouble, and there ensued a wide-ranging > >ideological struggle to chart the future of the liberal reform movement. > >Some New Dealers urged vigorous trustbusting; others advocated the > >resurrection of national economic planning that had existed under the > >National Recovery Administration. But in the end, Roosevelt rejected > >these alternatives and instead chose deficit financing as a quick fix to > >stimulate consumer demand and create jobs. > > > > With the massive deficit financing that paid for WWII, this debate > >became mute. I do think that importance of WWII in establishing deficit > >financing in times of emergency has been somewhat overlooked. By blending > >New Deal ideology and wartime urgency, the federal government assumed the > >responsibility for ensuring prosperity and stepping in when capitalism > >faltered. > > > > In other words, I would re-title the book which Steve Fraser and > >Gary Gerstle edited as The New Deal-WWII Order. > > > > I believe that a more important issue related to the financing of > >the war is the development of government contracting and the establishment > >of what Dwight Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex" -- to > >which I would add higher education and science. > > > > I agree with Jim Young's observations about "the dangers of > >military Keynesianism (If you build it, they will employ it)." For this > >aspect of the military-industrial complex, I would recommend a couple of > >books: Michael Sherry's In The Shadow of War: The United States Since the > >1930s and Ann Markusen et al., The Rise of the Gunbelt: The Military > >Revamping of Industrial America. > > > > How do you teach this significant aspect of the history of WWII > >and postwar America during the Cold War? > > > > > > Bill Tuttle > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: John Spencer Subject: WWII and Civil Rights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear list members, I don't want to distract too much from Bill Tuttle's helpful comments and query on the Keynesianism thread, but before it slips my mind I want to suggest a resource and solicit additional ones on the topic of race relations and the war. I'm a U.S. History Ph.D. student working with some high school teachers on their curriculum. Lately we've been developing a few lessons that address the idea of WWII as a watershed in race relations -- an idea that I very much endorse. Historians have been paying more and more attention to the continuities between the civil rights struggles of the 1930s and 1940s (especially involving A. Phillip Randolph and the labor movement generally) and the more widely familar events of the 1950s and 1960s (One of my favorite examples, especially useful for Bay Area folks, is Marilynn Johnson, *The Second Gold Rush: Oakland and The East Bay in World War II*). But I think these continuities are still not emphasized heavily enough in U.S. History writing or teaching (or filmmaking, for that matter -- the otherwise outstanding *Eyes on the Prize,* for example, begins its in-depth coverage of the civil rights movement with Emmett Till in 1955) Anyway, just yesterday we were working with a very useful book that perhaps some of you have used: Phillip McGuire, ed., *Taps for a Jim Crow army : Letters from Black Soldiers in World War II* (1983). These letters (most of them to black newspapers -- in itself an interesting lesson on which stories get told, and where) wonderfully illustrate the tension between the rhetorical idealism of the war years and the realities of segregated and discriminatory military service. When reading them it's not hard to sense how these experiences and the militance they engendered flowed directly into the struggles of the following decades. Of course, the 1941 March on Washington movement is probably the most obvious link between civil rights in the 1940s and the 1960s. Another useful document is the set of demands made by Randolph the following year, in 1942; they show very powerfully and concisely how much the wartime assault on Jim Crow prefigured Brown v. Board, Montgomery. etc. (reprinted in Milton Meltzer, *In their own words; a history of the American Negro*) Aside from the helpful Polenberg, O'Neill, and Blum books that have already been mentioned, are there any sources or materials that other list-members have found especially useful? Or any thoughts/experiences that list-members can share regarding the teaching of this element of the homefront? Thanks, John Spencer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:35:25 -0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: j christensen Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! In-Reply-To: <36FA88FD.EFFC6CA7@commnet.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Professor Ju-chang He, I have read with considerable interest your comments about the blame being placed on Keynes for World War II and its aftermath. Please take a moment to look at _The Commanding Heights_, which explodes many of the myths of Keynesian economics. As the writer, Yergin, author of _The Prize_ points out, many governments in Europe after World War II thought the answer was more government involvement because of their wrecked economies. They soon learned that combination of government and free-market economics made the most difference in recovery. Therefore, I propose to you it may be too simple an answer to blame Keynes and his economics for the woes of Western and Asian economies. Most of the wrecked economies after World War II were looking desperately for answers, and they found their answers in the forward thinking of Monnet, Erhard, and Bevin. Best, Dr. Jay California State University, Northridge College of Business and Economics ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:49:47 EST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: DAugust101@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Civil Rights Movement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Prof. Pitz: Don't know if you were refering to the info I sent to Guocun Yang about the video and text on America's Civil Rights Movement. To be on the safe side, no telephone number, e-mail, or fax was listed. Just the address in Montgomery, Alabama. Sorry. Diane Augustyniak ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:58:01 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guocun Yang wrote: >Preparedness for WWII reflects this spending as do some welfare >programs in that they help maintain consumer buying power. >But the problem of unemployment can not be solved by any war. Do you think the problem of unemployment can be solved by Preparedness for WWII, but can not be solved by any war? Your statement is not logical. In my opinion, both war and Preparedness for WWII can solve the problem of unemployment. War and Preparedness for WWII both are war. Both of them have the same meaning. There is no Preparedness for WWII without war. >Nor can it be fully achieved through government relief. >Handing out relief money rarely creates jobs; non-charity >spending usually does. It is true that handing out relief money rarely creates jobs; non-charity spending usually does. However, we should be aware that, apart from finding jobs for the unemployed, another solution of unemployment is that the government distributes relief fund among the unemployed rather than provide them with jobs. If the government distributes relief fund among the unemployed, they will be maintained a reasonable life notwithstanding they have no job. Why should we think that we must find jobs for the unemployed? Why should we think that making war upon others is the only way to solve unemployment? Joblessness is far better than jobs of war. Why has the government got no money to distribute relief fund since it is rich enough to make war? >So preparedness is Keynesian and war as such is not. If >"help" means government spending so as to stimulate the economy, >that is Keynesian. All things considered, the American recovery >was due to Keynesianism rather than the war. In my opinion, both war and Preparedness for WWII can solve the problem of unemployment. War and Preparedness for WWII both are war. Both of them have the same meaning. There is no Preparedness for WWII without war. You say "So preparedness is Keynesian and war as such is not". So your statement is not logical. If preparedness is Keynesian, Keynesian will be war, which we must get rid of. If you argue that Keynesian is not war, it will be war itself that solve the problem of unemployment, not Keynesianism, because any war can solve the problem of unemployment notwithstanding there is no Keynesianism, and because all people must work hard when a war started. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or -----Original Message----- From: Guocun Yang To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 3:09 AM Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! >To Mr. He et al: >Keynesian theory involves fiscal policy, especially in the form of deficit >spending. Preparedness for WWII reflects this spending as do some welfare >programs in that they help maintain consumer buying power. >But the problem of >unemployment can not be solved by any war. >Nor can it be fully achieved through >government relief. Handing out relief money rarely creates jobs; non-charity >spending usually does. >So preparedness is Keynesian and war as such is not. If >"help" means government spending so as to stimulate the economy, that is >Keynesian. All things considered, the American recovery >was due to Keynesianism >rather than the war. > >Guocun Yang >Manchester, Conn. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:01:27 CST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Art Pitz Organization: Black Hawk College Subject: Re: Civil Rights Movement In-Reply-To: <1b12b376.36fae7bb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for checking. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:56:23 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit j christensen wrote: >Therefore, I propose to you it may be too simple >an answer to blame Keynes and his economics for the woes of Western and >Asian economies. Most of the wrecked economies after World War II were >looking desperately for answers, and they found their answers in the >forward thinking of Monnet, Erhard, and Bevin. I don't blame Keynes for the woes of Western and Asian economies. The whole world has publicly agreed that it is caused by overproduction. Why the woes of Western and Asian economies is caused by overproduction? My article "On The Development of Social Economy " has established a set of complete economic theories and also a new model of economic growth, by means of which we will be able to answer this question. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or -----Original Message----- From: j christensen To: WORLDWARIIFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 9:43 AM Subject: Re: Keynesian spread lies! >Professor Ju-chang He, I have read with considerable interest your >comments about the blame being placed on Keynes for World War II and its >aftermath. Please take a moment to look at _The Commanding Heights_, >which explodes many of the myths of Keynesian economics. > >As the writer, Yergin, author of _The Prize_ points out, many governments >in Europe after World War II thought the answer was more government >involvement because of their wrecked economies. They soon learned that >combination of government and free-market economics made the most >difference in recovery. Therefore, I propose to you it may be too simple >an answer to blame Keynes and his economics for the woes of Western and >Asian economies. Most of the wrecked economies after World War II were >looking desperately for answers, and they found their answers in the >forward thinking of Monnet, Erhard, and Bevin. >Best, Dr. Jay >California State University, Northridge >College of Business and Economics > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:04:15 +0000 Reply-To: Jliss@Scrippscol.edu Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Julie Liss Organization: Scripps College Subject: Re: WORLDWARIIFORUM Digest - 25 Mar 1999 to 26 Mar 1999 (#1999- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have found Howell Raines' oral history of the civil rights movement, My Soul is Rested, which starts in the 1940s, very useful. Julie Liss Julia E. Liss Chair Department of History Scripps College 1030 Columbia Avenue Claremont, CA 91711 (909) 607-3541 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:29:32 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: African American and civil rights history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good morning, I have been very interested in our discussion of African American history, race relations, and the civil rights movement during WWII. First, I have long been depressed about the relative lack of books and articles on these topics. Perhaps the best general study is Neil A. Wynn's The Afro-American and the Second World War, rev. ed. (1993). Dominic Capeci has written several books on the Detroit and Harlem race riots of 1943. There are a couple of rather dated books on the March on Washington Movement, as well as August Meier and Elliott Rudwick's history of CORE, which was established in 1942. I think there is a new generation of books emerging, such as Marilyn Johnson's The Second Gold Rush: Oakland and the East Bay in WWII, which John Spencer mentioned in his message. One of the most important WWII topics is the participation of American troops of color in the war as well as the postwar impact of this participation. Joyce Thomas of Cleveland State University is currently finishing a book on black soldiers and the civil rights movement within the military during the war. Her study deals directly with one of the issues raised by John Spencer: Was WWII a watershed in the history of American race relations. She shows that many of the black troops, e.g., Tuskegee airmen, had been civil rights activists before the war. She found a great deal of material in the National Archives records of the Research Branch of Army Special Services. When I deal with the issue of whether or not WWII was a watershed in African American history, I separate the question. First, like Joyce Thomas, I see many continuities in civil rights activism. Recent books affirm this position, including Patricia Sullivan's Days of Hope: Race and Democracy in the New Deal Era and John Egerton's Speak Now Against the Day: The Generation before the Civil Rights Movement in the South. On the other hand, I see WWII as a watershed with the second Great Migration which began in the 1940s and last for thirty years. More than 5 million blacks made the migration North and West, and in the process transformed American politics, making African Americans the "balance of power" in large urban-industrial states. With WWII, moreover, a new black middle-class leadership class emerged, composed of war veterans, college graduates, and CIO members and leaders. Finally, I believe that the democratic ideology of WWII (Four Freedoms, a war against racism, "The House We Live In," etc.) did cause many whites to reevaluate the "American Dilemma" in favor of racial and religious tolerance. What are your thoughts not only on the war's impact on African Americans, but also the impact on Mexican Americans and Latinos generally, on American Indians, on Japanese Americans, on Jewish Americans, and on other racial, religious, and ethnic groups in America? Bill Tuttle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:14:52 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Robert Shaffer Subject: Re: WWII and Civil Rights In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In response to John Spencer's request for materials on World War II and civil rights, may I recommend Penny Von Eschen's recent book, _Race Against Empire: Black Americans and Anticolonialism, 1937-1957_. I assigned it in an undergraduate U.S. diplomatic history class; my students had difficulty with the later chapters but the chapters focusing on World War II itself are quite good and quite accessible to undergraduates. Von Eschen's references to the African-American press, such as the _Pittsburgh Courier_ and the _Chicago Defender_, as well as _The Crisis_, would not be difficult for students to follow up on. Michael Denning's _The Cultural Front: The Laboring of American Culture in the 20th Century_ is also filled with great anecdotes and vignettes that can be adapted at all levels of teaching. Both Von Eschen's and Denning's books address the question that Bill Tuttle has raised about World War II as a watershed, by showing the background to wartime movements for racial equality, as well as their fate in the postwar period. At the risk of immodesty, I will also refer to two of my own articles: "Cracks in the Consensus: Defending the Rights of Japanese Americans During World War II," in _Radical History Review_ #72 (Fall 1998), which argues that there was more opposition to removal and internment by the liberal-left than historians have generally acknowledged, and "Multicultural Education in New York City During World War II," in _New York History_ 77 (July 1996), which raises issues which secondary education teachers in particular might wish to explore with their students. -- Robert Shaffer Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, John Spencer wrote: > Dear list members, > > I don't want to distract too much from Bill Tuttle's helpful comments and > query on the Keynesianism thread, but before it slips my mind I want to > suggest a resource and solicit additional ones on the topic of race > relations and the war. I'm a U.S. History Ph.D. student working with some > high school teachers on their curriculum. Lately we've been developing a > few lessons that address the idea of WWII as a watershed in race relations > -- an idea that I very much endorse. Historians have been paying more and > more attention to the continuities between the civil rights struggles of > the 1930s and 1940s (especially involving A. Phillip Randolph and the labor > movement generally) and the more widely familar events of the 1950s and > 1960s (One of my favorite examples, especially useful for Bay Area folks, > is Marilynn Johnson, *The Second Gold Rush: Oakland and The East Bay in > World War II*). But I think these continuities are still not emphasized > heavily enough in U.S. History writing or teaching (or filmmaking, for that > matter -- the otherwise outstanding *Eyes on the Prize,* for example, > begins its in-depth coverage of the civil rights movement with Emmett Till > in 1955) > > Anyway, just yesterday we were working with a very useful book that perhaps > some of you have used: Phillip McGuire, ed., *Taps for a Jim Crow army : > Letters from Black Soldiers in World War II* (1983). These letters (most of > them to black newspapers -- in itself an interesting lesson on which > stories get told, and where) wonderfully illustrate the tension between the > rhetorical idealism of the war years and the realities of segregated and > discriminatory military service. When reading them it's not hard to sense > how these experiences and the militance they engendered flowed directly > into the struggles of the following decades. > > Of course, the 1941 March on Washington movement is probably the most > obvious link between civil rights in the 1940s and the 1960s. Another > useful document is the set of demands made by Randolph the following year, > in 1942; they show very powerfully and concisely how much the wartime > assault on Jim Crow prefigured Brown v. Board, Montgomery. etc. (reprinted > in Milton Meltzer, *In their own words; a history of the American Negro*) > > Aside from the helpful Polenberg, O'Neill, and Blum books that have already > been mentioned, are there any sources or materials that other list-members > have found especially useful? Or any thoughts/experiences that list-members > can share regarding the teaching of this element of the homefront? > > Thanks, > John Spencer > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:40:02 +0800 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: chang Subject: Send a letter to the media. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, Do you think Keynesianism is still a science? Is it true that the Great Depression was ended by the military Keynesianism of the Second World War? My answer is "No!" Therefore, if we want peace, we must get rid of the Military Keynesianism. Please help me send a letter to the media, involving newspaper reporters. Or send me some e-mail address of reporters. For some reason in China today, I can't access internet easily. I can only access some e-mail discussion list. Thanks. The letter followes: Keynesian is spreading lies! Keynesian is spreading lies that the Great Depression was ended by the military Keynesianism of the Second World War and Keynesianism can solve economic crisis. It is true that after coming to power, Hitler launched a program of massive public works and military expansion, financed by borrowing, which may look like Keynesianism. It is true that as soon as the Second World War started, the labor statistics begin to sky-rocket upwards and the problem of unemployment was solved, which may look like the Great Depression was ended by the military Keynesianism of the Second World War. But it is wrong! How does economic crisis occur? The whole world has publicly agreed that it is caused by overproduction. So when economic crisis appears, we shoud make regulation of market and bankrupt the badly-managed companies with overproduction. In this way, overproduction can be decreased. When those bankrupted companies and unemployed workers take up new jobs, social economy will naturally develop forward. (Please read my articles [2] A model of economy growth, [3] a further explanation of this model, and [5] How to make Regulation of Market? in my homepage ) It is in this way that the USA and West-European countries solve their economic crisis. We shouldn't let Keynesianism hoodwink our eyes and know nothing about how these developed countries solve their economic crisis. Why are the USA and West-European countries still the most economically developed countries in the world though a lot of companies in those countries go bankrupt every year? The key to this question is right here. You might say that Hitler tried to solve economic crisis and unemployment by means of war instead of bankrupting the companies. You, however, should make it clear that, in order to solve economic crisis, you, first of all, have to bankrupt those badly-managed companies, and then the second step that follows is to find new jobs for the unemployed. Before the Second World War broke out, there had been a large quantity of bankrupted companies and unemployed workers. This was the first step towards the solution of economic crisis. Hitler's using war to solve unemployment was the second step, which means that Hitler found jobs of war for the unemployed. So, the problem of unemployment was solved with war. However, we should be aware that, apart from finding jobs of war for the unemployed, we can offer the unemployed other jobs which have nothing to do with war. Another solution is that the government distributes relief fund among the unemployed rather than provide them with jobs. Why should we think that we must find jobs for the unemployed? Why should we think that making war upon others is the only way to solve unemployment? Joblessness is far better than jobs of war. Why has the government got no money to distribute relief fund since it is rich enough to make war? Many countries all the world, unfortunately, still use Keynesianism to solve their economic crises. USA, for example, is still decreasing their unemployment rate by the military Keynesianism today. In my opinion, the only way to solve economic crisis is to allow the badly-managed and salary-defaulting companies to go bankrupt and the workers be out of job, to issue relief funds to the unemployed, and to encourage and help them to seek for new jobs. At the beginning of this century, numberless crises once took place in the USA and West-European countries. Their governments are achieved great successes on solving their crises every time they make for use of the above-mentioned solutions. And they have kept utilizing this solutions up till now. It is because they have been doing so to eliminate economic crises, their economy is universally acknowledged as the strongest in the world. Therefore, the Military Keynesianism can only lead to fascism and war, not economic development. Sincerely, Ju-chang He SHENZHEN, P.R. CHINA Welcome to visit My Home Page at or ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:51:11 -0600 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: WILLIAM TUTTLE Subject: Re: forum (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sadly -- for me, at least -- it is time to wrap up our WWII Forum. Before doing so, however, I would like to emphasize what, for me, is the most satisfying WWII topic to teach. That topic is the democratic thrust of so much of the wartime ideology. The bywords were tolerance, cooperation, brotherhood and sisterhood, and the essential unity of humankind across all boundaries. I mentioned "The House I Live In" in my last message. As many of you know, this song was sung by Frank Sinatra in an Oscar-winning short subject in 1945. Interestingly, the song was written by Abel Meeropol, who also wrote "Stange Fruit" because, as he explained, "I hate lynching, and I hate injustice, and I hate the people who perpetuate it." Abel Meeropol and his family also raised the sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. For me, Meeropol exemplifed this democratic ideology. A wonderful article that examines these democratic values does so by exploring how school teachers in New York City tried to operationalize these values and make them a central part of the curriculum. The article is by Robert Shaffer, whose comments have been so helpful during our WWII Forum. His article is "Multicultural Education in New York City During WWII," New York History, 77 (July 1996). Thanks to all of you who participated in the WII Forum. I have received a really helpul critique of the WWII Forum by Katie Curtiss which I am forwarding to you. If you have time, give us your response to the Forum. How could it have been improved? What worked, and what didn't? Thanks again for your time and energy. Bill Tuttle ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:29:22 -0700 From: KCURTISS@radar.sc.whecn.edu To: tuttle@falcon.cc.ukans.edu Subject: RE: forum Mr. Tuttle, You suggested topics are terrific; however, I think that there are two things happening in the discussion, or two different kinds of participants so to speak. Perhaps it is the nature of the forum, rather than the weakness of topics which leads to a lack of discussion on the suggestions at hand. Many participate in the discussion based on an interest in sharing web sites on the topic at hand and how to incorporated new technologies in the classroom. Those suggestions and web sites I find extremely helpful and I greatly appreciate them. Thus on one level the forum seems to be about exchanging teaching "aids", web sites and using technology in the classroom which does not generate discussion about "ideas".. On the other hand there are some who participate in the Forum, based on their desire to share ideas, more than web sites and technology. And I think there are fewer of these kinds of participants. There seems to be few, who participate in a discussion as to how people incorporate the big picture/themes in lecture and discussions. I often feel that if I admitted, in the Forum, I am still a novice in the web site world (and still rely for the most part on the lecture mode) the laughter would ripple all through the information highway. In addition, rather than respond to forum discussion topics, all too often people respond with personal perspectives as though the forum were a debate about the rightness or wrongness of an event, policy or "era" , rather than respond by engaging in a discussion of the subject at hand and ways to apply ideas in the classroom or various ways in which to approach the subject in the classroom setting, so that student's are exposed to a variety of opinions and angles. I hope during the final week of this discussion, people do respond to your suggestions for discussion. I think the points you suggest are a great jumping off place, to discuss the war and its repercussions. In fact I am considering putting my students in a discussion groups and giving them the very same questions you suggest. Even though I am hesitant to jump in with a thought or two (maybe I will become more brave in the future) I thoroughly enjoy the forum. Katie Curtiss > ---------- > From: WILLIAM TUTTLE[SMTP:tuttle@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 3:32 PM > To: KCURTISS@radar.sc.whecn.edu > Subject: Re: forum > > Dear Katie Curtiss, > > Thanks so much for your message. > > As I'm sure you could tell, I've spent some of my time in our WWII > Forum trying to suggest topics, approaches, books, websites, etc., that > would evoke responses. Some have worked, but most have, I'm afraid, > fallen flat, including whether WWII was a good war," a "watershed," > the war's lifespan consequences, etc. > > Do you have any ideas about fruitful topics that people might want > to discuss? > > Thanks again for your message. > > Bill Tuttle > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:59:01 CST Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Art Pitz Organization: Black Hawk College Subject: Re: African American and civil rights history In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT One of the interesting watersheds in this area was that WWII directly led to the integration of baseball--of enormous symbolic influence given that it was 'the American pastime'. WWII convinced 'Happy'Chandler and Branch Rickey that blacks should play in the big leagues. If baseball could (& should) be integrated, then why not the rest of American society? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:52:32 -0500 Reply-To: WORLD WAR II FORUM Sender: WORLD WAR II FORUM From: Stephen Homick Subject: Re: African American and civil rights history In-Reply-To: <199904010051.SAA27246@support2.bhc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 31 Mar 99, a las 18:59, Art Pitz scripsit: > One of the interesting watersheds in this area was that WWII directly led > to the integration of baseball--of enormous symbolic influence given that > it was 'the American pastime'. WWII convinced 'Happy'Chandler and Branch > Rickey that blacks should play in the big leagues. If baseball could (& > should) be integrated, then why not the rest of American society? I wonder if it wasn't a case of realpolitik, American style? After all, the nascent African-American political class clamored for a war not only against Nazi racists but rather against the home-grown variety on this side of the pond, as well. Wasn't that the so-called "Double V Campaign's" rhyme and reason? Likewise, didn't the NAACP's membership increase ten-fold during the war years; wasn't it the BSCP's Randolph who brandished the threat of a "thundering march" on Washington, if FDR failed to stomp out the vermin of race exclusion in the civil service; didn't Roosevelt ultimately hand down in consequence Executive Order 8802, the first presidential directive on race relations since Reconstruction; and wasn't CORE founded in '42? More important, didn't something on the order of a million African Americans serve in uniform? Weren't the nation's cities wracked by outbreaks of racial warfare about half way through the war; and didn't Myrdal's _An American dilemma_, published in '44, if memory serves, state that not since Reconstruction was the time so ripe for a sea change in race relations? Above all, after acquitting themselves valorously in the struggle against the fascist beast, was there any reason to believe that the heroic veterans of the 761st. Tank Batt., the 99th. Pursuit Sqdn. and other African American units would return home, and let cracker kleiner fuhrers continue to trample on their constitutionally-guaranteed rights, privileges and immunities? I believe Robinson himself was court-martialed for refusing to take the customary rear seat on a bus, and won acquittal. Indeed, the attitude of more than few of his brother vets of color was one of mounting angry intolerance of and belligerent resistance to any attempt by the white racist reich to deny them the plenitude of liberty's blessings. So, in the last instance, I think it was the enraged thunder of the rising African American political voice, and not simply WWII, that egged on Chandler and Rickey's momentous decision. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0.2 -- QDPGP 2.50 Comment: http://community.wow.net/grt/qdpgp.html iQA/AwUBNwLtf7BKDh9GYnshEQKhegCgkDIBhXb4qjPCwfJX1uN6bu6IuckAoMDE EVPI4+VKUg52Sov0SD9HUEMn =Ikkh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Desde orillas del hermoso lago Champlain, saludos virtuales de ********************************************************************* #S. 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