=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:01:41 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Marilyn Young 
Subject:      Marilyn Young's Opening Statement

Dear Colleagues,

Almost everything written about the Vietnam war since 1975 includes,
in some form, the sentence: Vietnam was the most divisive conflict
in American history since the civil war. Sometimes teaching the war
ends up being an account of that division, as if indeed it *had* been
a civil war. Student attention often seems fixed on the American story
and, even more narrowly, on accounts by or about American combat veterans,
who then come to stand for the whole of the war. Starting the story in
Vietnam can help, but I have found students essentially waiting this
part of the course out, waiting, so to speak, for the Americans to arrive.

I would be interested in learning the experience of participants in courses
in which Vietnam figures in whole or part. How do you approach teaching
the war? What issues do you stress? What sorts of problems have you
encountered? More recently, I have begun to suspect that teaching the
Vietnam in isolation from, for example, the Korean war or U.S. China
policy, makes the conflict seem more aberrant than it was, so that the
lessons it is possible to learn from studying it become overly narrow.
I look forward to your responses, questions and suggestions.

Marilyn Young
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:20:25 EST
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Kate Taylor 
Subject:      THE ROAD TO WAR
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I thought members of the Vietnam War Forum may be interested in the follow=
ing
title on the subject:

THE ROAD TO WAR
France and Vietnam, 1944-1947

By Martin Shipway, Birkbeck College, University of London

"This is an important book=85 This book is  extremely  well written, and I=
 found
reading it almost effortless=85 I recommend this book to anyone interested=
 in
the origins of what may one day be considered the second thirty-years war =
of
our 'short' history."  H-Net Reviews

How did France become embroiled in Vietnam, in the first of long wars of
decolonization?  And why did the French colonial administration,  in late
1946, having negotiated with Ho Chi Minh for a year, adapt a warlike stanc=
e
towards Ho's r=E9gime which ran counter to the liberal colonial doctrine o=
f
liberated France?

Based on French archival sources, almost all of them previously unavailabl=
e to
the English-speaking reader, the author assesses the policy that emerged f=
rom
the 1944 Brazzaville conference; and the doomed attempt to apply that poli=
cy
in Indo-China.

If you would like any further information about this title, please do cont=
act
your nearest Berghahn Books office:

Berghahn Books, 55 John Street, 3rd Floor, New York, NY 10038, USA
BerghahnUS@aol,com

Berghahn Books, 3 Newtec Place, Magdalen Road, Oxford, OX4 1RE, UK
BerghahnUK@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:07:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam Era to Younger Audiences
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This is a hard one.  I am currently working on a collection of documents
with a Vietnam veteran who is also a high school teacher. Our hope is to
provide documents from various viewpoints, documents the instructor will
have to help students understand in their own terms.  If our selection is
good enough, as I hope it will be, your desire to avoid bias should be well
served.  Meanwhile, I would urge you to look through some of the
documentary collections that already exist and make your own selection for
teaching purposes. These include a collection edited by Bruce Franklin,
Jane Franklin, Marvin Gettleman and myself called VIETNAM AND AMERICA and
one edited by William Appleman Williams, Tom McCormick and Lloyd Gardner
called AMERICA IN VIETNAM. Finally, Olson and Roberts have a very short,
well-written text which highlights various personalities and strives to be
even-handed.  Depending on the student's level and availability in your
school system, some documentary videos might be worth exploring.  Segments
of the PBS series on the Vietnam war are excellent -- visually compelling
and reasonably diverse in terms of the views presented. There is another
issue, however, in your message.  I think there can be a difference between
teaching from one's own point of view and proselytizing, provided one makes
clear that it *is* a point of view and gives fair air time to other
perspectives.  I have not taught K-12, but the difference between college
freshmen and high school seniors is, after all, just a summer vacation. In
my experience student do want to know what the teacher him/herself thinks
and why they think it.  Otherwise, one pretends to an impossible and
unlikely neutrality.  Marilyn B. Young






At 08:57 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>One's presentation of an overview about the Vietnam Era to a younger
>audience (middle school and elementary) can often be the first of such
>to those children. I feel it would be unethical for me to project a
>particular bias when talking about the war, its causes and effects.
>And yet, I find it difficult not to take on some measure of . . . perspective
>in my efforts to present information in a narrative form. I would appreciate
>hearing suggestions based on experiences in talking with younger
>audiences. I wish to effectively tell the tale without proselytizing. I don't
>want my personal opinions to be mistaken for gospel. Any ideas?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:30:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         steve cohen 
Subject:      greetings to marilyn

Marilyn:

  I saw that you were running this forum this month and wanted to take the opportunity to say hi.  It was a pleasure meeting you at U Mass Boston this summer.  I enjoyed doing the workshop on My Lai and wish that I had had a chance to stay longer and chat with you and the other participants.  I am teaching a Peace and Justice seminar at Tufts next semester and will be looking at reconciliation.  Any suggestions from the Vietnam era?

  Hope you are well.

      Steve
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:47:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         David Krugler 
Subject:      My Lai

Dear colleagues,

This semester in my US History since 1877 survey, I assigned James Olson
and Randy Roberts, "My Lai: A Brief History with Documents" (Bedford Books,
1998). I have asked the students to write a five page paper examining My Lai
through the eyes of people who were alive at the time. Choices include a mom
whose son is in the Army, a soldier serving in Vietnam, a North Vietnamese
communist, or a reporter covering the story. Based on their point of view,
the students then pick a topic. For instance, the North Vietnamese communist
writes a pamphlet explaining why My Lai shows the US is fighting for the
wrong reasons. A soldier can explain that the chain of command and stress on
obeying orders led to My Lai. Whatever point of view and topic is taken,
students use the primary sources in Olson and Roberts.

Have any of you tried "role-playing" assignments--whether with
essays, tests, or discussions--and if so, how did it work out?

Best, David Krugler
University of Wisconsin--Platteville
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:55:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: greetings to marilyn
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wonder if the parallel narratives of Vietnamese/American fiction might
work -- Bao Ninh, say, and Tim O'Brien or Larry Heinemann. Or there's the
anthology Wayne Karlin did which groups Vietnamese and American writings by
theme. And I am always impressed when I get a mailing from veterans
building peace parks or building schools in Vietnam. I haven't seen any
secondary literature on this -- Kevin Bowen might know.
Me too, it was wonderful meeting you last summer. Hope you drop by the
Joiner this summer as well when I'm there for my usual stint... Mariyn


At 01:30 PM 12/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Marilyn:
>
>  I saw that you were running this forum this month and wanted to take the
opportunity to say hi.  It was a pleasure meeting you at U Mass Boston this
summer.  I enjoyed doing the workshop on My Lai and wish that I had had a
chance to stay longer and chat with you and the other participants.  I am
teaching a Peace and Justice seminar at Tufts next semester and will be
looking at reconciliation.  Any suggestions from the Vietnam era?
>
>  Hope you are well.
>
>      Steve
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:03:42 EST
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Steve Schwartz 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam Era to Younger Audiences
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Vietnam Forum Readers:

A few years back, running into the problem of teaching the war and its effects
to high school age youngsters who too often confused it with WW II or perhaps
some earlier conflict, I decided to meet a group at the NYC Vietnam Veterans
Memorial.  It is located in the Wall Street area near Water Street and is a
rather simple glass brick monolith.  Illuminated from within at night and by
day simply making use of natural illumination, it contains portions of letters
posted by servicemen and women and their families during the conflict.

If memory serves me correctly, some of the letters were particularly heart-
wrenching, others humorous or recollections of the day to day boredom - fear -
anticipation faced by soldiers, sailors, air force and related personnel.  In
some cases there are joyous descriptions of orders to return and completion of
tours of duty.  Other letters talk about the day to day responsibilities and
concerns of enlisted personnel and officers.  Still others brutally relate the
terror of having been sent off to war.  There is more than enough pathos ---
letters from service personnel expressing hopes of returning to the states
followed in closed juxtaposition to notification to next of kin of the death
of that writer. Other blocks describe the carnage, accomplishments and
frustrations accompanying war.

I had assigned the usual textbook reading and ancillary texts prior to the
visit.  We had also viewed segments of the PBS series on the Vietnam War.  The
look on the faces of my students as they read the letters and notes on the
memorial blocks stunned me.  They asked few questions during the visit and
remained somewhat subdued on the trip back to school. Subsequent lessons and
discussions indicated increased interest in the war and the effects on this
nation. This memorial certainly hit an emotional chord. In recent years I have
not taught that portion of the curriculum involved with the Vietnam Era,
however, if I was to take another class visit, I think that I would supply to
each student a clipboard on which (s)he might record those messages that
struck closest to home --- most pathos, hope, illustrate concern for one's
fellow human being.

The emotions of the wall are very personal and were never written with the
intention of being made public, therefore such an activity would help students
to understand how the written word, communicates over time.  My English
colleague suggests that in the future we could present samples of letters
written during the Civil War, W.W.I and W.W.II along with the Vietnam writings
in order to develop the concept of universal and enduring emotions.

I have tried to find out, without success, if the messages on the NYC memorial
blocks exist in some written or on - line form. If anyone has any information
that could help with this inquiry, I would be appreciative.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:06:27 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Richard Verrone 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Opening Statement
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Dr. Young and Colleagues,
    I will offer a brief response to Dr. Young's opening remarks on teaching
Vietnam. Specifically, I would like to comment on how we as teachers work the
Vietnam side into the instruction about the war. I'm sure most of you want to
focus on teaching the war in a specialized Vietnam War class.  I would like to
comment briefly on one aspect of how I teach the war, including the Vietnam
side, in my American survey courses. This course is often the only exposure for
my students to the war on the college level.  When I get to the war in the
survey, I have already laid the cold war framework that surrounds the American
involvement in Southeast Asia. The students are already aware of what the
American global policy is and how it is working or not working. I usually spend
three class periods on the war (really a totally inadequate time, but all I
have time for in the survey). I do take some time to work in the Vietnamese
side. One thing I do to at the beginning of the discussion is to try to put the
war into historical context for both sides. For the Vietnamese side, I draw a
timeline on the board and briefly outline the major periods and events in
Vietnamese history with a particular focus on the Vietnamese struggle for
independence, for unity, and/or its struggle against foreign invaders. When I
get to the twentieth century and show the class the very small window of time
in which the Americans were involved in a war in Vietnam, the class usually
gets the contextual picture: the U.S. was involved for a short amount of time
(according to the Vietnamese) in another Vietnamese struggle against a foreign
*invader*. The students can thus understand Hanoi's avenue to victory against
the Americans:  enervation, or the progressive erosion of the enemy's political
will, or the political will of the enemy's domestic population, to carry on a
fight for an undetermined length of time.
    There are two other ways I involve the Vietnamese side of the war. I have
traveled in the country and interviewed Vietnamese veterans about their
experiences, as well as conducted discussions with Vietnamese university
students about their perceptions of the war and what they are being taught
about the American involvement in their country. I relate this information to
my students. I also bring into class a South Vietnamese refugee who worked for
the South Vietnamese government at the province level and who witnessed the war
from a professional and personal viewpoint. The students really get a feel for
what happened when he tells his story and when they ask him questions.
Unfortunately, I only have access to a former Vietnamese resident from the
South. It would obviously be ideal to have a former resident of North Vietnam
in class as well to balance things out a bit.
    Just some thoughts. I'd love to hear other comments about teaching Vietnam
and the Vietnamese side of the war, especially in the survey course.

Richard Verrone
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, Texas

Marilyn Young wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Almost everything written about the Vietnam war since 1975 includes,
> in some form, the sentence: Vietnam was the most divisive conflict
> in American history since the civil war. Sometimes teaching the war
> ends up being an account of that division, as if indeed it *had* been
> a civil war. Student attention often seems fixed on the American story
> and, even more narrowly, on accounts by or about American combat veterans,
> who then come to stand for the whole of the war. Starting the story in
> Vietnam can help, but I have found students essentially waiting this
> part of the course out, waiting, so to speak, for the Americans to arrive.
>
> I would be interested in learning the experience of participants in courses
> in which Vietnam figures in whole or part. How do you approach teaching
> the war? What issues do you stress? What sorts of problems have you
> encountered? More recently, I have begun to suspect that teaching the
> Vietnam in isolation from, for example, the Korean war or U.S. China
> policy, makes the conflict seem more aberrant than it was, so that the
> lessons it is possible to learn from studying it become overly narrow.
> I look forward to your responses, questions and suggestions.
>
> Marilyn Young
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:17:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: My Lai
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I can't comment on the role playing, as I haven't used it in Vietnam
classes, but just two quick comments. I used the Olson/Roberts this term
and found that it worked in terms of lively discussion. However, the
collection is skimpy on the legal issues about which many students asked.
Why, for example, was Calley not charged with a war crime?  A recent
conference volume edited by David Anderson, FACING MYLAI (Kansas University
Press) is a good supplement to the Olson/Roberts -- if not for the
students, then for the instructor. A second comment which is also a
question: why a North Vietnamese communist? My Lai was in the south, the
victims were all southerners, the troops alleged to have been in the
village were NLF. Indeed, the area was thought to be the home base of an
NLF battalion. Why not have someone 'role-play' someone in the NLF?




At 05:47 PM 12/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear colleagues,
>
>This semester in my US History since 1877 survey, I assigned James Olson
>and Randy Roberts, "My Lai: A Brief History with Documents" (Bedford Books,
>1998). I have asked the students to write a five page paper examining My Lai
>through the eyes of people who were alive at the time. Choices include a mom
>whose son is in the Army, a soldier serving in Vietnam, a North Vietnamese
>communist, or a reporter covering the story. Based on their point of view,
>the students then pick a topic. For instance, the North Vietnamese communist
>writes a pamphlet explaining why My Lai shows the US is fighting for the
>wrong reasons. A soldier can explain that the chain of command and stress on
>obeying orders led to My Lai. Whatever point of view and topic is taken,
>students use the primary sources in Olson and Roberts.
>
>Have any of you tried "role-playing" assignments--whether with
>essays, tests, or discussions--and if so, how did it work out?
>
>Best, David Krugler
>University of Wisconsin--Platteville
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:48:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam Era to Younger Audiences
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jonathan Shay and others would urge that the context for dealing with war
and those who have fought in one should go further back -- to the Illiad.
In any case, I think Steven Schwartz's idea is excellent, though it's
important not to make the war *about* American combat veterans and/or their
post-war experience, important, politically, historically and culturally as
that has been.


At 08:03 PM 12/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>Vietnam Forum Readers:
>
>A few years back, running into the problem of teaching the war and its
effects
>to high school age youngsters who too often confused it with WW II or perhaps
>some earlier conflict, I decided to meet a group at the NYC Vietnam Veterans
>Memorial.  It is located in the Wall Street area near Water Street and is a
>rather simple glass brick monolith.  Illuminated from within at night and by
>day simply making use of natural illumination, it contains portions of
letters
>posted by servicemen and women and their families during the conflict.
>
>If memory serves me correctly, some of the letters were particularly heart-
>wrenching, others humorous or recollections of the day to day boredom -
fear -
>anticipation faced by soldiers, sailors, air force and related personnel.  In
>some cases there are joyous descriptions of orders to return and
completion of
>tours of duty.  Other letters talk about the day to day responsibilities and
>concerns of enlisted personnel and officers.  Still others brutally relate
the
>terror of having been sent off to war.  There is more than enough pathos ---
>letters from service personnel expressing hopes of returning to the states
>followed in closed juxtaposition to notification to next of kin of the death
>of that writer. Other blocks describe the carnage, accomplishments and
>frustrations accompanying war.
>
>I had assigned the usual textbook reading and ancillary texts prior to the
>visit.  We had also viewed segments of the PBS series on the Vietnam War.
The
>look on the faces of my students as they read the letters and notes on the
>memorial blocks stunned me.  They asked few questions during the visit and
>remained somewhat subdued on the trip back to school. Subsequent lessons and
>discussions indicated increased interest in the war and the effects on this
>nation. This memorial certainly hit an emotional chord. In recent years I
have
>not taught that portion of the curriculum involved with the Vietnam Era,
>however, if I was to take another class visit, I think that I would supply to
>each student a clipboard on which (s)he might record those messages that
>struck closest to home --- most pathos, hope, illustrate concern for one's
>fellow human being.
>
>The emotions of the wall are very personal and were never written with the
>intention of being made public, therefore such an activity would help
students
>to understand how the written word, communicates over time.  My English
>colleague suggests that in the future we could present samples of letters
>written during the Civil War, W.W.I and W.W.II along with the Vietnam
writings
>in order to develop the concept of universal and enduring emotions.
>
>I have tried to find out, without success, if the messages on the NYC
memorial
>blocks exist in some written or on - line form. If anyone has any information
>that could help with this inquiry, I would be appreciative.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:48:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Gael Graham 
Subject:      Marilyn Young's Opening Statement -Reply
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

I have not been able to teach an entire course on the Vietnam War, but
I cover the war in a general education course on the 20th century US
and in a topics course on 20th century American wars and memory (have
taught this once).

There are problems with textbook coverage of the war, which usually
lacks any Vietnamese perspective and is scattered through 5 different
chapters. I've tried to combat that by lecturing on the whole war.
Once I experimented by assigning students roles (North Vietnames,
NLF, South Vietnamese gov't official, South Vietnamese peasant) and
then having them move about the room in response to events I was
lecturing about ("OK all you peasants, pack up and move. You're being
relocated due to the Strategic Hamlet program. Anyone want to join the
NLF right about now? Go ahead.") but I didn't think it was very
effective. Some students later told me that they had liked this
lecture, so maybe there's some way to fine tune it.

I too find that students are mostly interested in the American side,
but I'm not sure that's necessarily a problem. Many of my students
have fathers or uncles who fought in the war, and so their interest
in "our" side of the story is natural. I usually play to their
interest and try to elicit questions from them on what they most want
to know. To try to maintain some integrity, I ask them whether they
want me to respond as a liberal, radical or conservative.

However, to leave them with only the American side DOES do them a
disservice. I like to pass out 'fact cards' about  the costs of the
war to Americans and Vietnamese and  ask them how to interpret these
facts. My students 'get it' right away.

This is too long so I'll quit, but I'm enjoying this discussion very
much.

Gael Graham
History Department
Western Carolina University
graham@wpoff.wcu.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:20:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         David Krugler 
Subject:      Re: My Lai

Vietnam Forum readers:

To answer the question as to why only a North Vietnamese communist, this was
not the only Vietnamese perspective students could choose. I provided a partial
list and encouraged students to create their own point of view and topic. (The
papers just came in today, so I don't know how many of my 98 students will choose
a Viet Cong perspective or villager).

I too wish that the Olson and Robert's book dipped deeper into the war crime issue.
From discussion, it was apparent that many of my students are willing to
perceive the matter as only a problem in following orders. Comparison with
similar situtations (e.g., Christopher Browning's look at German Reserve
Battalion 101 during WWII) might prove helpful. During discussion, I focused
attention on Dennis Conti, who refused to fire on the civilians he was
guarding. It will be interesting to see how many students use Conti's
example to argue that obedience of all orders is not absolute. But based on
discussion, I am anticipating that the "military" or "chain of command" will
be blamed, with war crimes not figuring in as prominently.

Thanks for the reference to the Anderson book, Facing My Lai.

Best, David Krugler
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:47:04 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: My Lai
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My experience is similar: a large number of students explain (but insist
they do not justify) My Lai in terms of military training -- one must obey
orders; fear of being punished -- perhaps instantly and with death -- if
you don't carry out orders; the heat of the moment, etc. The video
"Remembering My Lai" which also exists in a BBC version, "Four Hours in My
Lai," has a marked emotional impact, but the explanations, which are
quasi-justifications, survive.  What is most disturbing to me is that many
students are ready to discount civilian status if the civilian is a
supposed 'VC sympathizer.'





At 03:20 PM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Vietnam Forum readers:
>
>To answer the question as to why only a North Vietnamese communist, this was
>not the only Vietnamese perspective students could choose. I provided a
partial
>list and encouraged students to create their own point of view and topic.
(The
>papers just came in today, so I don't know how many of my 98 students will
choose
>a Viet Cong perspective or villager).
>
>I too wish that the Olson and Robert's book dipped deeper into the war
crime issue.
>>From discussion, it was apparent that many of my students are willing to
>perceive the matter as only a problem in following orders. Comparison with
>similar situtations (e.g., Christopher Browning's look at German Reserve
>Battalion 101 during WWII) might prove helpful. During discussion, I focused
>attention on Dennis Conti, who refused to fire on the civilians he was
>guarding. It will be interesting to see how many students use Conti's
>example to argue that obedience of all orders is not absolute. But based on
>discussion, I am anticipating that the "military" or "chain of command" will
>be blamed, with war crimes not figuring in as prominently.
>
>Thanks for the reference to the Anderson book, Facing My Lai.
>
>Best, David Krugler
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:48:04 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: My Lai
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

postscript; I think using Browning along with the Olson/Roberts would be
very interesting indeed.

At 03:20 PM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Vietnam Forum readers:
>
>To answer the question as to why only a North Vietnamese communist, this was
>not the only Vietnamese perspective students could choose. I provided a
partial
>list and encouraged students to create their own point of view and topic.
(The
>papers just came in today, so I don't know how many of my 98 students will
choose
>a Viet Cong perspective or villager).
>
>I too wish that the Olson and Robert's book dipped deeper into the war
crime issue.
>>From discussion, it was apparent that many of my students are willing to
>perceive the matter as only a problem in following orders. Comparison with
>similar situtations (e.g., Christopher Browning's look at German Reserve
>Battalion 101 during WWII) might prove helpful. During discussion, I focused
>attention on Dennis Conti, who refused to fire on the civilians he was
>guarding. It will be interesting to see how many students use Conti's
>example to argue that obedience of all orders is not absolute. But based on
>discussion, I am anticipating that the "military" or "chain of command" will
>be blamed, with war crimes not figuring in as prominently.
>
>Thanks for the reference to the Anderson book, Facing My Lai.
>
>Best, David Krugler
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:34:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Weitzel, Ronald" 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam

When teaching about Vietnam I think we are obliged to give our students some
sort of framework within which we try to explain just why that war was "the
most divisive conflict in American history since the civil war."  I teach a
U.S. History survey course to high school juniors and they are mystified as
to how that conflict brought Americans including young persons much like
themselves into the streets, protesting, burning draft cards, and often even
much worse.  They see film of students not much older than they are now
carrying signs and marching by the tens of thousands and they ask, why?
     As I see it my job is to help them understand the whys and whats of
Vietnam--why was there a war, what was it all about, why was the US involved
(and how did that happen?), what were the official reasons used to explain
our presence, were there less than official reasons that were also used to
explain our presence, and so on and so on.
     In teaching the whys and whats I think a good teacher ends up doing two
things--teaching the "facts" (through documents preferably) and giving an
interpretation to those facts.  Sibley Smith is concerned about "projecting
a particular bias" and "proselytizing", and so am I.  At the same time I
think an overall interpretation brings meaning and coherence to a subject
which is not otherwise easily understood.
     In my own classes I lecture on the history of the wars in Vietnam
stressing the idea of the war of national liberation, first from the French,
then from the Japanese, again from the French, and finally from the
Americans.  I then look specifically at the American presence in Vietnam
through documents and narrative found in a publication from the Kennedy
School of Government at Harvard entitled Americanizing the Vietnam War.  In
these documents the explanation for US policy is explained in part by
asserting that wars of national liberation were merely "communist
tactics...all part of the same struggle" to achieve communist domination
around the globe, and that a reasonable US response to this was to regard
Vietnam as but the first of many dominoes that would inevitably fall should
the communists prevail.  I then suggest to the students that the conclusion
that Vietnam could well be the first of many dominoes was a conclusion based
largely on ignorance.  I direct them to Ernest May's remark (Vietnam:
Lessons of the Past) that "had American officials analyzed their own
reasoning and, insofar as historical evidence permitted, that of men in
other governments, they might have qualified their forecasts of what would
happen if the United States deserted Vietnam."
     Does this kind of interpretation project a particular bias.  I don't
think so.  But I do think it allows my students to get a handle on the war,
why we were involved in it,  and what the opposition to the war was all
about.  And at the very least I also believe my "interpretation" of why we
were in Vietnam is far more useful than Lyndon Johnson's when he said "We
did not choose to be guardians of the gate, but there is no one else."
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:38:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam
In-Reply-To:  <81B4B892446ECF1191F100805FCC66D17843E3@clerk.house.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

With respect to Ron Weitzel's message: I think you've drawn an important
distinction between "bias" and "interpretation." Facts, as we know, don't
speak for themselves, or very rarely so. All history is an interpretation
of the past and it is a good thing for students to understand that
interpretations are multiple and that historians drawing on the same body
of information come to radically different conclusions.


At 04:34 PM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>When teaching about Vietnam I think we are obliged to give our students some
>sort of framework within which we try to explain just why that war was "the
>most divisive conflict in American history since the civil war."  I teach a
>U.S. History survey course to high school juniors and they are mystified as
>to how that conflict brought Americans including young persons much like
>themselves into the streets, protesting, burning draft cards, and often even
>much worse.  They see film of students not much older than they are now
>carrying signs and marching by the tens of thousands and they ask, why?
>     As I see it my job is to help them understand the whys and whats of
>Vietnam--why was there a war, what was it all about, why was the US involved
>(and how did that happen?), what were the official reasons used to explain
>our presence, were there less than official reasons that were also used to
>explain our presence, and so on and so on.
>     In teaching the whys and whats I think a good teacher ends up doing two
>things--teaching the "facts" (through documents preferably) and giving an
>interpretation to those facts.  Sibley Smith is concerned about "projecting
>a particular bias" and "proselytizing", and so am I.  At the same time I
>think an overall interpretation brings meaning and coherence to a subject
>which is not otherwise easily understood.
>     In my own classes I lecture on the history of the wars in Vietnam
>stressing the idea of the war of national liberation, first from the French,
>then from the Japanese, again from the French, and finally from the
>Americans.  I then look specifically at the American presence in Vietnam
>through documents and narrative found in a publication from the Kennedy
>School of Government at Harvard entitled Americanizing the Vietnam War.  In
>these documents the explanation for US policy is explained in part by
>asserting that wars of national liberation were merely "communist
>tactics...all part of the same struggle" to achieve communist domination
>around the globe, and that a reasonable US response to this was to regard
>Vietnam as but the first of many dominoes that would inevitably fall should
>the communists prevail.  I then suggest to the students that the conclusion
>that Vietnam could well be the first of many dominoes was a conclusion based
>largely on ignorance.  I direct them to Ernest May's remark (Vietnam:
>Lessons of the Past) that "had American officials analyzed their own
>reasoning and, insofar as historical evidence permitted, that of men in
>other governments, they might have qualified their forecasts of what would
>happen if the United States deserted Vietnam."
>     Does this kind of interpretation project a particular bias.  I don't
>think so.  But I do think it allows my students to get a handle on the war,
>why we were involved in it,  and what the opposition to the war was all
>about.  And at the very least I also believe my "interpretation" of why we
>were in Vietnam is far more useful than Lyndon Johnson's when he said "We
>did not choose to be guardians of the gate, but there is no one else."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:59:06 EST
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Ed Demerly 
Subject:      Using fiction to teach the Vietnam War
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I'm not a history teacher. I'm a college composition teacher who uses
literature as content for essays. This winter for the first time, I'll be
offering a section with literature about Vietnam; i.e., short stories and
novels. I'll use a combination of American and post-war Vietnamese writers and
works which focus on not only the war but on post-war Vietnam and Vietnamese
immigration to the US. The major pieces of literature include:

Robert Olen Butler - A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain
Duong Thu Huong - Novel Without a Name
Duong Thu Huong - Paradise of the Blind
Bao Ninh - The Sorrow of War
Tim O'Brien - The Things They Carried
Ho Ahn Thai - Behind the Red Mist

I'm anxious to share the results of this experiment with anyone who's
interested as I move through the semester. Likewise, I'd love to hear from
anyone who's already used these works in composition or literature courses.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:45:58 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam Era to Younger Audiences
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marilyn B. Young wrote:

> Jonathan Shay and others would urge that the context for dealing with war
> and those who have fought in one should go further back -- to the Illiad.
> In any case, I think Steven Schwartz's idea is excellent, though it's
> important not to make the war *about* American combat veterans and/or their
> post-war experience, important, politically, historically and culturally as
> that has been.
>
> At 08:03 PM 12/1/98 EST, you wrote:
> >Vietnam Forum Readers:
> >
> >A few years back, running into the problem of teaching the war and its
> effects
> >to high school age youngsters who too often confused it with WW II or perhaps
> >some earlier conflict, I decided to meet a group at the NYC Vietnam Veterans
> >Memorial.  It is located in the Wall Street area near Water Street and is a
> >rather simple glass brick monolith.  Illuminated from within at night and by
> >day simply making use of natural illumination, it contains portions of
> letters
> >posted by servicemen and women and their families during the conflict.
> >
> >If memory serves me correctly, some of the letters were particularly heart-
> >wrenching, others humorous or recollections of the day to day boredom -
> fear -
> >anticipation faced by soldiers, sailors, air force and related personnel.  In
> >some cases there are joyous descriptions of orders to return and
> completion of
> >tours of duty.  Other letters talk about the day to day responsibilities and
> >concerns of enlisted personnel and officers.  Still others brutally relate
> the
> >terror of having been sent off to war.  There is more than enough pathos ---
> >letters from service personnel expressing hopes of returning to the states
> >followed in closed juxtaposition to notification to next of kin of the death
> >of that writer. Other blocks describe the carnage, accomplishments and
> >frustrations accompanying war.
> >
> >I had assigned the usual textbook reading and ancillary texts prior to the
> >visit.  We had also viewed segments of the PBS series on the Vietnam War.
> The
> >look on the faces of my students as they read the letters and notes on the
> >memorial blocks stunned me.  They asked few questions during the visit and
> >remained somewhat subdued on the trip back to school. Subsequent lessons and
> >discussions indicated increased interest in the war and the effects on this
> >nation. This memorial certainly hit an emotional chord. In recent years I
> have
> >not taught that portion of the curriculum involved with the Vietnam Era,
> >however, if I was to take another class visit, I think that I would supply to
> >each student a clipboard on which (s)he might record those messages that
> >struck closest to home --- most pathos, hope, illustrate concern for one's
> >fellow human being.
> >
> >The emotions of the wall are very personal and were never written with the
> >intention of being made public, therefore such an activity would help
> students
> >to understand how the written word, communicates over time.  My English
> >colleague suggests that in the future we could present samples of letters
> >written during the Civil War, W.W.I and W.W.II along with the Vietnam
> writings
> >in order to develop the concept of universal and enduring emotions.
> >
> >I have tried to find out, without success, if the messages on the NYC
> memorial
> >blocks exist in some written or on - line form. If anyone has any information
> >that could help with this inquiry, I would be appreciative.
> >
> >


i participated in a book project led by a Vietnam Veteran grade school teacher
from Pryor Oklahoma Bill McCloud.  the title is WHAT SHOULD WE TELL OUR CHILDREN
ABOUT VIETNAM?  myself and maybe 100 others from Jimmy Carter to G Gordon Liddy
wrote short: one two page answers.  The book is by U of Oklahoma Press. cheers,
country joe mcdonald

-- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:57:45 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Weitzel, Ronald wrote:

> When teaching about Vietnam I think we are obliged to give our students some
> sort of framework within which we try to explain just why that war was "the
> most divisive conflict in American history since the civil war."  I teach a
> U.S. History survey course to high school juniors and they are mystified as
> to how that conflict brought Americans including young persons much like
> themselves into the streets, protesting, burning draft cards, and often even
> much worse.  They see film of students not much older than they are now
> carrying signs and marching by the tens of thousands and they ask, why?
>      As I see it my job is to help them understand the whys and whats of
> Vietnam--why was there a war, what was it all about, why was the US involved
> (and how did that happen?), what were the official reasons used to explain
> our presence, were there less than official reasons that were also used to
> explain our presence, and so on and so on.
>      In teaching the whys and whats I think a good teacher ends up doing two
> things--teaching the "facts" (through documents preferably) and giving an
> interpretation to those facts.  Sibley Smith is concerned about "projecting
> a particular bias" and "proselytizing", and so am I.  At the same time I
> think an overall interpretation brings meaning and coherence to a subject
> which is not otherwise easily understood.
>      In my own classes I lecture on the history of the wars in Vietnam
> stressing the idea of the war of national liberation, first from the French,
> then from the Japanese, again from the French, and finally from the
> Americans.  I then look specifically at the American presence in Vietnam
> through documents and narrative found in a publication from the Kennedy
> School of Government at Harvard entitled Americanizing the Vietnam War.  In
> these documents the explanation for US policy is explained in part by
> asserting that wars of national liberation were merely "communist
> tactics...all part of the same struggle" to achieve communist domination
> around the globe, and that a reasonable US response to this was to regard
> Vietnam as but the first of many dominoes that would inevitably fall should
> the communists prevail.  I then suggest to the students that the conclusion
> that Vietnam could well be the first of many dominoes was a conclusion based
> largely on ignorance.  I direct them to Ernest May's remark (Vietnam:
> Lessons of the Past) that "had American officials analyzed their own
> reasoning and, insofar as historical evidence permitted, that of men in
> other governments, they might have qualified their forecasts of what would
> happen if the United States deserted Vietnam."
>      Does this kind of interpretation project a particular bias.  I don't
> think so.  But I do think it allows my students to get a handle on the war,
> why we were involved in it,  and what the opposition to the war was all
> about.  And at the very least I also believe my "interpretation" of why we
> were in Vietnam is far more useful than Lyndon Johnson's when he said "We
> did not choose to be guardians of the gate, but there is no one else."

a very easy to read book that relates the Vietnam War from a seldom heard from
Point Of View is: SHALLOW GRAVES, Two Women And Vietnam, by Wendy Wilder Larsen
and Tran Thi Nga.  Both are civilians.  Both meet each other initially in South
Vietnam.   Both meet again after the war in New York where they both live.
Larsen is the wife of a government worker.  Nga is North Vietnamese who
remembers the Viet Minh.  She choose to go South when the DMZ was drawn and
citizens were forced to choose sides.  Her siblings stayed North.  She got to
America as a refugee.  The book is allmost all poems written by the two women
upon meeting again after the war and are written as two stories.  It is very
moving and educational.   cheers, country joe mcdonald

 -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:37:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Sean Brawley 
Subject:      My Lai

By way of introduction I teach a subject on the Vietnam/American War at the
University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia.  I used the subject to not
only teach about the conflict but also as vehicle for understanding how the
past can be examined through a wide range of mediums, the role history plays
in the modern nation state and how cultural forms such as literature can
enlighten our understanding of what might appear as non-cultural issues
such as war.  I am in the interesting position that half of my class
(I taught the subject for the first time this year) was made up of
American study abroad students.  This made for some fascinating discussion
and at times appeared quite confronting for American students.  A case
in point.  At the beginning of the class I asked the students to
put up their hands if they thought there were still American POWs
in Vietnam.  Without exception every American student raised there hand.
Only two Australian students raised there hands.  Throughout the subject
I was struck by the degree to which a popular historical consciousness
of the war permeated these study abroad students and how far removed
it was from the historiography.


Regarding role play I strongly recommend the scenario put together by Mark
Bradley of the University of Chicago which role plays the Johnson
administration's decision to escalate the conflict in mid-1965.  Mark has
done a great job.  The role-play worked really well and students found it
fun.  There is a body of recent literature which has discussed the
pedagogical value of role play in learning situations.

Regarding My Lai, I had a lecture which first examined the general charge
of genocide which has been levelled at the US in Vietnam and then had a
seminar specifically on My Lai.  I prescribed both Olson/Roberts and Anderson
as reading and also showed the excellent British documentary Four Hours at
My Lai. This doco is a knock out and the discussions which followed were
sensational.  On the issue of genocide more generally
and the charge against the US I found Helen Fein's article in the Denver
Journal of International Law and Policy to be great.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:46:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Sean Brawley 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam

I would concur with Joe that Larsen and Nga's Shallow Graves is a useful
book.  It also serves another useful purpose which I must admit my students
saw before I did!  It highlights that for Americans the war was an episode
(acknowledging how it might live on in many ways and has many legacies) but
for the Vietnamese it was their life.  Is Larsen therefore deserving of
as much space in the book as Nga?  By giving Larsen as much space are we
devaluing the Vietnamese voice?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:55:41 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Sean Brawley 
Subject:      Re: Using fiction to teach the Vietnam War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

While I teach in a history department I use a lot of fiction in the subject
on Vietnam I teach here at UNSW.  This is easily justified.  A strong
tradition of seeing war literature as more authentic than war history dates
back to World War One.  Ofcourse one can also use postmodernist arguments
about historical truths and evidence.  When making this case I take good
advantage of Herr's dispatches =97 a postmodern history of a postmodern war?=

It can also be argued that verteran fiction gains us access to an American
voice which is often missing in conventional historiography.  With time
constraints and the nature of the subject I got each student to read one
work of fiction (whether American, Vietnamese, Australian or South Korean)
and they presented reports to the class in seminars which dealt with a relat=
ed
topic.  I also used feature film in a not dissimilar way.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:09:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Sean Brawley 
Subject:      Other Flags/Other Voices

Some years ago when visiting the United States for the first time I caught
a taxi in Champagne Illinois with a driver who I later found out was a Vietnam
Vet.  As we talked I mentioned the fact I knew several Australian Vietnam
Vets.  He was perplexed.  What did I mean??  He had no idea that Australians
had saw service in Vietnam.  This surprised me.  From 1961 to 1971 49, 000
Australians served in Vietnam.  Over 300 000 South Koreans were in-country.
Of course there were also New Zealanders, Thais and Filipinos not to forget
the many Canadians who served in the American military.

Some recognition of these other voices should appear in any subject on the
Vietnam/American War.  Obviously being an Australian and teaching in an
Australian university I pay some attention to this issue.  Within Australia
there are numerous works of both history and fiction, a feature film and
two mini-series (one starring Nicole Kidman no less!) which chroncle Australia's
Vietnam.  Getting material on the Asian allies however is more difficult.  I
used the South Koreans as an example because I could get more material
on them and because of the size of their contribution.  In this regard Ahn
Junghyo's White Badge: A Novel of Korea is excellent.  The book
also exists as a film though I have not yet seen it.

These other voices I feel are important and bring another dimension to
our understanding of the war and issues regarding American power.  I also
them useful as comparison points for the American voice.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:48:03 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Ron Frankum 
Subject:      Re: Other Flags/Other Voices
In-Reply-To:  
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The subject of Third Country forces in Vietnam has long been neglected in
United States historiography.  That Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, the
Philippines contributed troops in defense of South Vietnam or 35 other
countries provided a variety of technical, military, and economic
assistance from as early as 1950 seems to have escaped the notice of our
historians.

I would suggest that one possible reason for this was that the United
States effort to enlist allied support in Vietnam failed; and, many of the
Third Countries (Australia and New Zealand being the exception) either
contributed materials of a less significant value or struck deals with the
United States (as in the Gulf War) which were construed not as popular
support for the South Vietnamese effort but, rather, as profiteering or
political jockeying.  Unlike the Korean Conflict where the United States
orchestrated an international stand against an aggressor, the Vietnam War
failed to rally international support at a significant level.

Sean Brawley should not despair, however.  There are a few current United
States historians, myself included, who have examined the role America's
allies played in the Vietnam War.  In my spring 1999 class on the American
experience in Vietnam, I will devote a lecture to the role of America's
allies in the Vietnam War.  I agree that the "other voice" should be heard.
 In fact, I would argue that this other voice, at times, provides more in
the way of understanding United States policy in Vietnam than other
sources.  In the case of Australia, I have found that the annunciation of
United States policy to its most faithful ally in Vietnam is often clearer
than the public (and even private) justifications/objectives exposed by the
decision-makers.


Ron Frankum
The Vietnam Archive
Texas Tech University


At 02:09 AM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Some years ago when visiting the United States for the first time I caught
>a taxi in Champagne Illinois with a driver who I later found out was a
Vietnam
>Vet.  As we talked I mentioned the fact I knew several Australian Vietnam
>Vets.  He was perplexed.  What did I mean??  He had no idea that Australians
>had saw service in Vietnam.  This surprised me.  From 1961 to 1971 49, 000
>Australians served in Vietnam.  Over 300 000 South Koreans were in-country.
>Of course there were also New Zealanders, Thais and Filipinos not to forget
>the many Canadians who served in the American military.
>
>Some recognition of these other voices should appear in any subject on the
>Vietnam/American War.  Obviously being an Australian and teaching in an
>Australian university I pay some attention to this issue.  Within Australia
>there are numerous works of both history and fiction, a feature film and
>two mini-series (one starring Nicole Kidman no less!) which chroncle
Australia's
>Vietnam.  Getting material on the Asian allies however is more difficult.  I
>used the South Koreans as an example because I could get more material
>on them and because of the size of their contribution.  In this regard Ahn
>Junghyo's White Badge: A Novel of Korea is excellent.  The book
>also exists as a film though I have not yet seen it.
>
>These other voices I feel are important and bring another dimension to
>our understanding of the war and issues regarding American power.  I also
>them useful as comparison points for the American voice.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:17:40 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Carl Schulkin 
Subject:      Country Joe McDonald
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Colleagues,

        Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and I
devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
school and college students.  To help students understand the polarization
of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the students.
First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE RAG.
After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then play
Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not found
an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late 1960s
and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
please post it to the list.

Carl Schulkin
Pembroke Hill School
Kansas City, MO 64112
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:19:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Using fiction to teach the Vietnam War
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The list is excellent and I'd very much like to know how it goes.  My
problem with using literature is precisely that I *use* it -- mine it for
historical purposes, which does violence to the literture and, I think, in
its ignorance of how to teach the formal aspects of literature, probably
misses a great deal.



At 07:59 PM 12/2/98 EST, you wrote:
>I'm not a history teacher. I'm a college composition teacher who uses
>literature as content for essays. This winter for the first time, I'll be
>offering a section with literature about Vietnam; i.e., short stories and
>novels. I'll use a combination of American and post-war Vietnamese writers
and
>works which focus on not only the war but on post-war Vietnam and Vietnamese
>immigration to the US. The major pieces of literature include:
>
>Robert Olen Butler - A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain
>Duong Thu Huong - Novel Without a Name
>Duong Thu Huong - Paradise of the Blind
>Bao Ninh - The Sorrow of War
>Tim O'Brien - The Things They Carried
>Ho Ahn Thai - Behind the Red Mist
>
>I'm anxious to share the results of this experiment with anyone who's
>interested as I move through the semester. Likewise, I'd love to hear from
>anyone who's already used these works in composition or literature courses.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:54:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

No, why would it be devaluing? Especially if, as you indicate, your
students see the difference between Larsen and Nga and reflect on it.



At 01:46 AM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I would concur with Joe that Larsen and Nga's Shallow Graves is a useful
>book.  It also serves another useful purpose which I must admit my students
>saw before I did!  It highlights that for Americans the war was an episode
>(acknowledging how it might live on in many ways and has many legacies) but
>for the Vietnamese it was their life.  Is Larsen therefore deserving of
>as much space in the book as Nga?  By giving Larsen as much space are we
>devaluing the Vietnamese voice?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:14:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Barbara M. Kelly" 
Organization: Hofstra University
Subject:      Re: Using fiction to teach the Vietnam War
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I use the literature not so much to TEACH the history as to provide my
video-oriented students with a common experience of the history.  From that
experience, they are better able to follow a text or lecture which is better
grounded.  For example, I have been using "Born/4th July" this week.  I also
use "Yankee Doodle Dandy" and "This is the Army."   Once the students have a
working familiarity with the films, I can develop a lesson which compares and
contrasts the two wars and their cultural, political, and economic contexts.
As I lecture, I make references during and after the films to reinforce my
points.
For example, the differences in the 'decontaminating' experience: WWII vets
coming home in troop ships, with time to relive, rehash, and recover from the
experiences of war with others who had been there, vs Kovics and his friend
Timmy engaging in gallows humor in the back yard a year after their woundings.

It is a very classtime-consuming method, but it is also extremely effective.
They do learn and remember; they respond well on the evaluations [NOT, "I liked
this class," but "the films helped me to understand..."]

In some cases -- e.g. Yankee Doodle Dandy -- I snip and show only what I want
to use in class to support my lecture.  This means that the method is also
freetime-consuming since I spend a lot of time watching the on-screen displays
to be able to set up the tapes.

I also do a comparison of the popular music from each of the two wars.
Old-time radio tapes with pro-war propaganda in every episode, vs Country Joe's
lyrical commentary, have also worked well.

In using the 4th of July film, I have an added advantage in motivating my
students since Ron Kovics spent some time as a student here.  This makes both
his story and himself more real.  Hard to believe, but it's been a long
time since then, and these kids need all the linkage I can muster.

Barbara Kelly
Hofstra University

I might add that
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:37:35 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Teaching Vietnam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sean Brawley wrote:

> I would concur with Joe that Larsen and Nga's Shallow Graves is a useful
> book.  It also serves another useful purpose which I must admit my students
> saw before I did!  It highlights that for Americans the war was an episode
> (acknowledging how it might live on in many ways and has many legacies) but
> for the Vietnamese it was their life.  Is Larsen therefore deserving of
> as much space in the book as Nga?  By giving Larsen as much space are we
> devaluing the Vietnamese voice?

a decade ago i had both women Larsen and Nga read from their book as part of a
women and the vietnam war day.  Nga brought family with her, they sat right in
front.  i met them all.  they wept the entire time.  what was obvious was that
these two very shy women had found a strength togeather.  people bond in war
and students should know that.  cheers, country joe mcdonald


- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:45:17 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Other Flags/Other Voices
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sean Brawley wrote:

> Some years ago when visiting the United States for the first time I caught
> a taxi in Champagne Illinois with a driver who I later found out was a Vietnam
> Vet.  As we talked I mentioned the fact I knew several Australian Vietnam
> Vets.  He was perplexed.  What did I mean??  He had no idea that Australians
> had saw service in Vietnam.  This surprised me.  From 1961 to 1971 49, 000
> Australians served in Vietnam.  Over 300 000 South Koreans were in-country.
> Of course there were also New Zealanders, Thais and Filipinos not to forget
> the many Canadians who served in the American military.
>
> Some recognition of these other voices should appear in any subject on the
> Vietnam/American War.  Obviously being an Australian and teaching in an
> Australian university I pay some attention to this issue.  Within Australia
> there are numerous works of both history and fiction, a feature film and
> two mini-series (one starring Nicole Kidman no less!) which chroncle Australia's
> Vietnam.  Getting material on the Asian allies however is more difficult.  I
> used the South Koreans as an example because I could get more material
> on them and because of the size of their contribution.  In this regard Ahn
> Junghyo's White Badge: A Novel of Korea is excellent.  The book
> also exists as a film though I have not yet seen it.
>
> These other voices I feel are important and bring another dimension to
> our understanding of the war and issues regarding American power.  I also
> them useful as comparison points for the American voice.

see VIETNAM STUDIES, ALLIED PARTICIPATION IN VIETNAM, Department of the Army by Lt
Gen S R Larsen and Bd Gen J L Collins, Jr.
1975 there is much about Australian troops but most important an explanation of
Lyndon Johnson"s FREE WORLD FORCES concept of allied support for war in Vietnam.
It was LBJ who personaly went to Australia to convince the govt to activate the
draft for Ausies during Vietnam War years.   We assumed death benifits for all
Republic of Korea troops.   We purchased and allowed Thai troops to keep all
equipment light and heavy we gave them.  cheers, country joe mcdonald

   -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:38:28 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Carl Schulkin wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
>         Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
> lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and I
> devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
> school and college students.  To help students understand the polarization
> of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the students.
> First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE RAG.
> After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
> students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then play
> Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
> ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not found
> an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late 1960s
> and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
> please post it to the list.
>
> Carl Schulkin
> Pembroke Hill School
> Kansas City, MO 64112

well i do not have the statistics at hand but Fixing To Die Rag with and
without the X rated F cheer NEVER charted on any charts while Oakie From
Muskogee did chart on the Country and Western Music charts.   Fixing to Die Rag
has never been regular play list material for radio or even sales in stores.
Pete Seeger issued a cover single (which can be heard on my web page) but the
distributors refused to handle it.  To this day the Rag is a commercial problem
for radio and Okie From Muskogee has never been a problem.  Thus larger main
stream exposure.  The Rag is still underground today in the commercial music
world it gets lots of play by news media..  cheers, country joe mcdonald


 -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:59:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Robert Shaffer 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
In-Reply-To:  <199812031517.JAA29237@gvi.gvi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        At the risk of trivializing a fascinating discussion on how to
teach the Vietnam War, I have to say that I was floored by Carl Schulkin's
post about using "Fixin' to Die Rag" and "Okie from Muskogee" in a class
on Vietnam.  The reason I was floored is that I thought _I_ was the only
one who thought up that particular pedagogical technique, which I used
several years ago in a course at Rutgers-Newark on the U.S. since 1945.
In preparing for my course this semester at Shippensburg University on
U.S. diplomatic history, I had been thinking about _not_ repeating the
exercise, for fear that it would take too much time away from analyzing
other documents.  But after turning to my e-mail this morning and seeing a
post from Country Joe himself, of course I _have_ to use the songs.  In my
Rutgers class, by the way, I also included the theme song from "The Green
Berets" (which I have not found on any records or tapes, and used from the
film itself) along with "Volunteers of America" by the Jefferson Airplane
and "Parris Island" (I believe that was the title) by Billy Joel.  (I
might add that in teaching the U.S. entry into World War I, I regularly
use original recordings of "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be a Soldier" with
"Over There," an idea which had been suggested at a training workshop for
NYC high school teachers which I attended about a dozen years ago.)
        I might add that the document that I have assigned to all my
students, high school (excerpted) or college (full version), since I have
started teaching, is Martin Luther King's "Declaration of Independence
From the War in Vietnam" (April 1967), which is available in the
Young-Gettleman-Franklin-Franklin collection, _Vietnam and America_,
previously mentioned on this list, and in many other sources.  It is in my
view the most accessible radical analysis of the war for students, and
illustrates the way that the issue of Vietnam became intertwined with
other social movements of the time.  The fact that it is Martin Luther
King, who most students identify mainly as a hero with a vaguely
idealistic "dream," is particularly helpful, and can raise issues about
how we remember his legacy.  High school teachers, by the way, might be
able to use this document even when not teaching the Vietnam War per se,
as many high schools ask teachers to devote a session to Martin Luther
King around the January 15 holiday.  (I know I was so asked, when I taught
high school.)
        I might add also that I always ask students to look at the
language of the Geneva Accords of 1954, which promise elections and
reunification, and which clearly indicate that there is one nation of
Vietnam, in juxtaposition with Johnson's repeated invocation (as in his
Johns Hopkins University speech of April 7, 1965) of the "independent nation
of South Viet-Nam."  Another juxtaposition is of LBJ's 1961 joint press
conference with Diem, praising Diem to the skies, and the Henry Cabot
Lodge cables of 1963 plotting the assassination of Diem.  These documents,
which can be fairly easily edited for classroom handouts, are all in the
Young et al collection, if I am not mistaken.  (I don't have my copy in
front of me here.)
        On a more pessimistic note, I was surprised in my class on U.S.
diplomatic history yesterday that my students were on the whole cynical
about Ho Chi Minh's 1945 Declaration of Independence, several attributing
the language to a typical Communist ruse to fool Americans and the world.
I had expected (hoped that?) my students to see the American failure to
support this independence movement as a disjunction between U.S. rhetoric
and reality.
        The timing of this list -- toward the end of the semester for
college teachers, when I imagine many of us are discussing Vietnam -- is
good for me.  And my regards to my former professor Marilyn Young, whose
book, _The Vietnam Wars_, I have been rereading yet again as I prepare for
these two (unfortunately too brief) class sessions on Vietnam.

-- Robert Shaffer
History Department
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
>         Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
> lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and I
> devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
> school and college students.  To help students understand the polarization
> of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the students.
> First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE RAG.
> After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
> students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then play
> Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
> ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not found
> an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late 1960s
> and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
> please post it to the list.
>
> Carl Schulkin
> Pembroke Hill School
> Kansas City, MO 64112
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:09:09 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Eileen Walsh 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
In-Reply-To:  <199812031517.JAA29237@gvi.gvi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey, Carl -

Sorry to have to ask, but heck, it's all for pedagogical purposes.  What's
"Okie from Muskogee?"  I've heard the term but didn't know it was a song.
What is the point that makes it valuable for contrasting to "Fixin' to Die
Rag"?  Despite the facts the Joe provides, I (a sample of one--not
compelling, but interesting) grew up singing the Fixin to Die Rag but, as I
said, know nothing about Merle Haggard's song.  I was growing up in
Southern California, maybe that makes a difference.

Eileen


Dr. Eileen Walsh
History Department
Acting Director, Center for Professional Development
Bemidji State University
Bemidji MN  USA  56601
(218) 755-4355  office   ewalsh@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu
http://cal.bemidji.msus.edu/history/Faculty/walsh.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:39:35 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert Shaffer wrote:

>         At the risk of trivializing a fascinating discussion on how to
> teach the Vietnam War, I have to say that I was floored by Carl Schulkin's
> post about using "Fixin' to Die Rag" and "Okie from Muskogee" in a class
> on Vietnam.  The reason I was floored is that I thought _I_ was the only
> one who thought up that particular pedagogical technique, which I used
> several years ago in a course at Rutgers-Newark on the U.S. since 1945.
> In preparing for my course this semester at Shippensburg University on
> U.S. diplomatic history, I had been thinking about _not_ repeating the
> exercise, for fear that it would take too much time away from analyzing
> other documents.  But after turning to my e-mail this morning and seeing a
> post from Country Joe himself, of course I _have_ to use the songs.  In my
> Rutgers class, by the way, I also included the theme song from "The Green
> Berets" (which I have not found on any records or tapes, and used from the
> film itself) along with "Volunteers of America" by the Jefferson Airplane
> and "Parris Island" (I believe that was the title) by Billy Joel.  (I
> might add that in teaching the U.S. entry into World War I, I regularly
> use original recordings of "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be a Soldier" with
> "Over There," an idea which had been suggested at a training workshop for
> NYC high school teachers which I attended about a dozen years ago.)
>         I might add that the document that I have assigned to all my
> students, high school (excerpted) or college (full version), since I have
> started teaching, is Martin Luther King's "Declaration of Independence
> >From the War in Vietnam" (April 1967), which is available in the
> Young-Gettleman-Franklin-Franklin collection, _Vietnam and America_,
> previously mentioned on this list, and in many other sources.  It is in my
> view the most accessible radical analysis of the war for students, and
> illustrates the way that the issue of Vietnam became intertwined with
> other social movements of the time.  The fact that it is Martin Luther
> King, who most students identify mainly as a hero with a vaguely
> idealistic "dream," is particularly helpful, and can raise issues about
> how we remember his legacy.  High school teachers, by the way, might be
> able to use this document even when not teaching the Vietnam War per se,
> as many high schools ask teachers to devote a session to Martin Luther
> King around the January 15 holiday.  (I know I was so asked, when I taught
> high school.)
>         I might add also that I always ask students to look at the
> language of the Geneva Accords of 1954, which promise elections and
> reunification, and which clearly indicate that there is one nation of
> Vietnam, in juxtaposition with Johnson's repeated invocation (as in his
> Johns Hopkins University speech of April 7, 1965) of the "independent nation
> of South Viet-Nam."  Another juxtaposition is of LBJ's 1961 joint press
> conference with Diem, praising Diem to the skies, and the Henry Cabot
> Lodge cables of 1963 plotting the assassination of Diem.  These documents,
> which can be fairly easily edited for classroom handouts, are all in the
> Young et al collection, if I am not mistaken.  (I don't have my copy in
> front of me here.)
>         On a more pessimistic note, I was surprised in my class on U.S.
> diplomatic history yesterday that my students were on the whole cynical
> about Ho Chi Minh's 1945 Declaration of Independence, several attributing
> the language to a typical Communist ruse to fool Americans and the world.
> I had expected (hoped that?) my students to see the American failure to
> support this independence movement as a disjunction between U.S. rhetoric
> and reality.
>         The timing of this list -- toward the end of the semester for
> college teachers, when I imagine many of us are discussing Vietnam -- is
> good for me.  And my regards to my former professor Marilyn Young, whose
> book, _The Vietnam Wars_, I have been rereading yet again as I prepare for
> these two (unfortunately too brief) class sessions on Vietnam.
>
> -- Robert Shaffer
> History Department
> Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:
>
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >         Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
> > lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and I
> > devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
> > school and college students.  To help students understand the polarization
> > of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the students.
> > First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE RAG.
> > After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
> > students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then play
> > Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
> > ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not found
> > an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late 1960s
> > and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
> > please post it to the list.
> >
> > Carl Schulkin
> > Pembroke Hill School
> > Kansas City, MO 64112
> >


for your information Daniel Keller of Green Mt. Post Films (ex Liberation News
Service) and myself put togeather a 30 minute video using non-fictionalized
footage of every discription from video,16mm, and very large mm DOD footage to go
along with songs covering many aspects of the vietnam war starting with
recruitment, through combat, agent orange, chicago riots, Vietnam Veteran
protests during and after the war, combat war nursing, ending with chicago
welcome home parade for vietnam veterans.  it was ment to be an educational
tool.  it was packaged wrong and is not known but exists from my web site or MPI
Video out of Chicago.  try it you might like it.   cheers, country joe mcdonald


 -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:29:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Other Flags/Other Voices
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A recent conference sponsored by the German Historical Institute focused on
putting the American war in an international context -- there were papers
on Thailand, the Western allies and Australia -- and at some point I expect
there will be a conference volume.  Gavan McCormack's book on Australia and
the Korean war (Cold War/Hot War) concludes with some reflections on
Australia and Vietnam and probably Australia's participation in the Vietnam
war should be looked at in terms of its prior cooperation in Korea.  George
Kahin's book, Intervention, has some illuminating things to say on the many
flags program.



At 02:09 AM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Some years ago when visiting the United States for the first time I caught
>a taxi in Champagne Illinois with a driver who I later found out was a
Vietnam
>Vet.  As we talked I mentioned the fact I knew several Australian Vietnam
>Vets.  He was perplexed.  What did I mean??  He had no idea that Australians
>had saw service in Vietnam.  This surprised me.  From 1961 to 1971 49, 000
>Australians served in Vietnam.  Over 300 000 South Koreans were in-country.
>Of course there were also New Zealanders, Thais and Filipinos not to forget
>the many Canadians who served in the American military.
>
>Some recognition of these other voices should appear in any subject on the
>Vietnam/American War.  Obviously being an Australian and teaching in an
>Australian university I pay some attention to this issue.  Within Australia
>there are numerous works of both history and fiction, a feature film and
>two mini-series (one starring Nicole Kidman no less!) which chroncle
Australia's
>Vietnam.  Getting material on the Asian allies however is more difficult.  I
>used the South Koreans as an example because I could get more material
>on them and because of the size of their contribution.  In this regard Ahn
>Junghyo's White Badge: A Novel of Korea is excellent.  The book
>also exists as a film though I have not yet seen it.
>
>These other voices I feel are important and bring another dimension to
>our understanding of the war and issues regarding American power.  I also
>them useful as comparison points for the American voice.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:41:36 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey Robert...
Another post mentioned it, but to reinforce the suggestion, the film "Uncle
Ho and Uncle Sam" is particularly good on the 1945 period.
I think it is possible to allow your students their cynicism and work with
it. Ho certainly played to the Americans in 1945, hoping to enlist US
support v the French but not really expecting it to happen(see Ho's letter
to Charles Fenn in Fenn's litle book on the OSS and the Viet Minh). There
were signs and banners in English welcoming Americans on Sept. 2, etc.
Using the wording of the Declaration could have multiple meanings: it
reminded the US of their origins in a revolution against British
colonialism; it flattered the Americans AND its form powerfully expressed
the Vietnamese petition of grievances against the  French. It's good to be
able to teach students, through a text, that more than one thing can be
going on at the same time... M.



At 02:59 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>        At the risk of trivializing a fascinating discussion on how to
>teach the Vietnam War, I have to say that I was floored by Carl Schulkin's
>post about using "Fixin' to Die Rag" and "Okie from Muskogee" in a class
>on Vietnam.  The reason I was floored is that I thought _I_ was the only
>one who thought up that particular pedagogical technique, which I used
>several years ago in a course at Rutgers-Newark on the U.S. since 1945.
>In preparing for my course this semester at Shippensburg University on
>U.S. diplomatic history, I had been thinking about _not_ repeating the
>exercise, for fear that it would take too much time away from analyzing
>other documents.  But after turning to my e-mail this morning and seeing a
>post from Country Joe himself, of course I _have_ to use the songs.  In my
>Rutgers class, by the way, I also included the theme song from "The Green
>Berets" (which I have not found on any records or tapes, and used from the
>film itself) along with "Volunteers of America" by the Jefferson Airplane
>and "Parris Island" (I believe that was the title) by Billy Joel.  (I
>might add that in teaching the U.S. entry into World War I, I regularly
>use original recordings of "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be a Soldier" with
>"Over There," an idea which had been suggested at a training workshop for
>NYC high school teachers which I attended about a dozen years ago.)
>        I might add that the document that I have assigned to all my
>students, high school (excerpted) or college (full version), since I have
>started teaching, is Martin Luther King's "Declaration of Independence
>>From the War in Vietnam" (April 1967), which is available in the
>Young-Gettleman-Franklin-Franklin collection, _Vietnam and America_,
>previously mentioned on this list, and in many other sources.  It is in my
>view the most accessible radical analysis of the war for students, and
>illustrates the way that the issue of Vietnam became intertwined with
>other social movements of the time.  The fact that it is Martin Luther
>King, who most students identify mainly as a hero with a vaguely
>idealistic "dream," is particularly helpful, and can raise issues about
>how we remember his legacy.  High school teachers, by the way, might be
>able to use this document even when not teaching the Vietnam War per se,
>as many high schools ask teachers to devote a session to Martin Luther
>King around the January 15 holiday.  (I know I was so asked, when I taught
>high school.)
>        I might add also that I always ask students to look at the
>language of the Geneva Accords of 1954, which promise elections and
>reunification, and which clearly indicate that there is one nation of
>Vietnam, in juxtaposition with Johnson's repeated invocation (as in his
>Johns Hopkins University speech of April 7, 1965) of the "independent nation
>of South Viet-Nam."  Another juxtaposition is of LBJ's 1961 joint press
>conference with Diem, praising Diem to the skies, and the Henry Cabot
>Lodge cables of 1963 plotting the assassination of Diem.  These documents,
>which can be fairly easily edited for classroom handouts, are all in the
>Young et al collection, if I am not mistaken.  (I don't have my copy in
>front of me here.)
>        On a more pessimistic note, I was surprised in my class on U.S.
>diplomatic history yesterday that my students were on the whole cynical
>about Ho Chi Minh's 1945 Declaration of Independence, several attributing
>the language to a typical Communist ruse to fool Americans and the world.
>I had expected (hoped that?) my students to see the American failure to
>support this independence movement as a disjunction between U.S. rhetoric
>and reality.
>        The timing of this list -- toward the end of the semester for
>college teachers, when I imagine many of us are discussing Vietnam -- is
>good for me.  And my regards to my former professor Marilyn Young, whose
>book, _The Vietnam Wars_, I have been rereading yet again as I prepare for
>these two (unfortunately too brief) class sessions on Vietnam.
>
>-- Robert Shaffer
>History Department
>Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania
>
>On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>>         Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
>> lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and I
>> devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
>> school and college students.  To help students understand the polarization
>> of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the
students.
>> First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE RAG.
>> After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
>> students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then play
>> Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
>> ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not found
>> an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late 1960s
>> and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
>> please post it to the list.
>>
>> Carl Schulkin
>> Pembroke Hill School
>> Kansas City, MO 64112
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:46:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Opening Statement -Reply
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

re role playing: Mark Bradley has kindly supplied me with his website
address. I haven't checked it yet, but it includes the scenario for
role-playing the LBJ decision: www.uwm.edu/People/mbradley/VtnWarSec7.html



At 02:48 PM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I have not been able to teach an entire course on the Vietnam War, but
>I cover the war in a general education course on the 20th century US
>and in a topics course on 20th century American wars and memory (have
>taught this once).
>
>There are problems with textbook coverage of the war, which usually
>lacks any Vietnamese perspective and is scattered through 5 different
>chapters. I've tried to combat that by lecturing on the whole war.
>Once I experimented by assigning students roles (North Vietnames,
>NLF, South Vietnamese gov't official, South Vietnamese peasant) and
>then having them move about the room in response to events I was
>lecturing about ("OK all you peasants, pack up and move. You're being
>relocated due to the Strategic Hamlet program. Anyone want to join the
>NLF right about now? Go ahead.") but I didn't think it was very
>effective. Some students later told me that they had liked this
>lecture, so maybe there's some way to fine tune it.
>
>I too find that students are mostly interested in the American side,
>but I'm not sure that's necessarily a problem. Many of my students
>have fathers or uncles who fought in the war, and so their interest
>in "our" side of the story is natural. I usually play to their
>interest and try to elicit questions from them on what they most want
>to know. To try to maintain some integrity, I ask them whether they
>want me to respond as a liberal, radical or conservative.
>
>However, to leave them with only the American side DOES do them a
>disservice. I like to pass out 'fact cards' about  the costs of the
>war to Americans and Vietnamese and  ask them how to interpret these
>facts. My students 'get it' right away.
>
>This is too long so I'll quit, but I'm enjoying this discussion very
>much.
>
>Gael Graham
>History Department
>Western Carolina University
>graham@wpoff.wcu.edu
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:49:24 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Ron Frankum 
Subject:      Re: Other Flags/Other Voices
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19981203152946.00cb38cc@is2.nyu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rather than place Australia's strategy for deploying troops in the Vietnam
War on the Korean Conflict, I would stress their strategic objectives
further south to Indonesia, question of West New Guinea, and
Malaya/Malaysia in the 1950s to 1965.

Before Vietnam and before/during/after Korea, the role Indonesia played in
Australian foreign policy was paramount.

Ron Frankum
The Vietnam Archives
Texas Tech University



At 03:29 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>A recent conference sponsored by the German Historical Institute focused on
>putting the American war in an international context -- there were papers
>on Thailand, the Western allies and Australia -- and at some point I expect
>there will be a conference volume.  Gavan McCormack's book on Australia and
>the Korean war (Cold War/Hot War) concludes with some reflections on
>Australia and Vietnam and probably Australia's participation in the Vietnam
>war should be looked at in terms of its prior cooperation in Korea.  George
>Kahin's book, Intervention, has some illuminating things to say on the many
>flags program.
>
>
>
>At 02:09 AM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Some years ago when visiting the United States for the first time I caught
>>a taxi in Champagne Illinois with a driver who I later found out was a
>Vietnam
>>Vet.  As we talked I mentioned the fact I knew several Australian Vietnam
>>Vets.  He was perplexed.  What did I mean??  He had no idea that Australians
>>had saw service in Vietnam.  This surprised me.  From 1961 to 1971 49, 000
>>Australians served in Vietnam.  Over 300 000 South Koreans were in-country.
>>Of course there were also New Zealanders, Thais and Filipinos not to forget
>>the many Canadians who served in the American military.
>>
>>Some recognition of these other voices should appear in any subject on the
>>Vietnam/American War.  Obviously being an Australian and teaching in an
>>Australian university I pay some attention to this issue.  Within Australia
>>there are numerous works of both history and fiction, a feature film and
>>two mini-series (one starring Nicole Kidman no less!) which chroncle
>Australia's
>>Vietnam.  Getting material on the Asian allies however is more difficult.  I
>>used the South Koreans as an example because I could get more material
>>on them and because of the size of their contribution.  In this regard Ahn
>>Junghyo's White Badge: A Novel of Korea is excellent.  The book
>>also exists as a film though I have not yet seen it.
>>
>>These other voices I feel are important and bring another dimension to
>>our understanding of the war and issues regarding American power.  I also
>>them useful as comparison points for the American voice.
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:00:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Other Flags/Other Voices
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19981203154924.007a2bf0@pop.ttu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, I'm sure you are right into terms of Australian foreign policy. My
point was more in terms of Australian participation in US hot war
endeavors...

At 03:49 PM 12/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Rather than place Australia's strategy for deploying troops in the Vietnam
>War on the Korean Conflict, I would stress their strategic objectives
>further south to Indonesia, question of West New Guinea, and
>Malaya/Malaysia in the 1950s to 1965.
>
>Before Vietnam and before/during/after Korea, the role Indonesia played in
>Australian foreign policy was paramount.
>
>Ron Frankum
>The Vietnam Archives
>Texas Tech University
>
>
>
>At 03:29 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>A recent conference sponsored by the German Historical Institute focused on
>>putting the American war in an international context -- there were papers
>>on Thailand, the Western allies and Australia -- and at some point I expect
>>there will be a conference volume.  Gavan McCormack's book on Australia and
>>the Korean war (Cold War/Hot War) concludes with some reflections on
>>Australia and Vietnam and probably Australia's participation in the Vietnam
>>war should be looked at in terms of its prior cooperation in Korea.  George
>>Kahin's book, Intervention, has some illuminating things to say on the many
>>flags program.
>>
>>
>>
>>At 02:09 AM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Some years ago when visiting the United States for the first time I caught
>>>a taxi in Champagne Illinois with a driver who I later found out was a
>>Vietnam
>>>Vet.  As we talked I mentioned the fact I knew several Australian Vietnam
>>>Vets.  He was perplexed.  What did I mean??  He had no idea that
Australians
>>>had saw service in Vietnam.  This surprised me.  From 1961 to 1971 49, 000
>>>Australians served in Vietnam.  Over 300 000 South Koreans were in-country.
>>>Of course there were also New Zealanders, Thais and Filipinos not to forget
>>>the many Canadians who served in the American military.
>>>
>>>Some recognition of these other voices should appear in any subject on the
>>>Vietnam/American War.  Obviously being an Australian and teaching in an
>>>Australian university I pay some attention to this issue.  Within Australia
>>>there are numerous works of both history and fiction, a feature film and
>>>two mini-series (one starring Nicole Kidman no less!) which chroncle
>>Australia's
>>>Vietnam.  Getting material on the Asian allies however is more
difficult.  I
>>>used the South Koreans as an example because I could get more material
>>>on them and because of the size of their contribution.  In this regard Ahn
>>>Junghyo's White Badge: A Novel of Korea is excellent.  The book
>>>also exists as a film though I have not yet seen it.
>>>
>>>These other voices I feel are important and bring another dimension to
>>>our understanding of the war and issues regarding American power.  I also
>>>them useful as comparison points for the American voice.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:43:07 EST
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Steve Schwartz 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

NMC'ers

Don't know if this has been already mentioned (in that my trusty computer
crapped out yesterday), but have we discussed the (in)famous "Group W Bench"
from the Arlo Guthrie epic story - song (about 24 minutes), Alice's
Restaurant?  One can almost recall our protagonists plea to an Army doctor at
the Whitehall St (NYC) induction center to let him "kill, maim ..." only to
find that he is fit for service.  Sort of a Vietnam Era "Catch 22".  (The
movie version I have been unable to find on video --- does it exist?)

Steve Schwartz
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:15:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         David Weiss 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Opening Statement

I teach high school, and have included a unit on the Vietnam conflict in by
 International Baccaluareate History Class.  Within that course, the
 Vietnam Conflict fits under four of the seven 20th c. history  categories:
 Decolonization and nationalism in the 20th c., The Rise of Single Party
 States, East/West Relations since 1945, and War & Peace in the 20th C.
Thus it can serve as an excellent TEXT in relation to other 20th c events.
I teach Vietnam after units on WWII in the Pacific, The Origins of the Cold War,
and the Cuban Revolution and the Cuban Missile Crisis.  So by the time I get to it
the students already know about the role Indochina played as a factor for American involvement
in the Pacific War; they have learned about the creation of a Sino-Soviet Bloc, and
its eventual split after the Cuban Crisis; about the role of a charasmatic figure (Castro) in a revolution
and quite a bit else that will enable them to understand the context of Vietnam.

To teach the unit I go back to French colonialism utlizing Vietnam: A TV series, the use the
role playing exercise on the Geneva conference of 1954 from the CHOICES
series (Brown University Center for Foreign Policy Development), have them read primary source
 material including the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence and as we follow the chronology
forward, ask them to make decisions (should truman have recognized the new viet minh gov't?)
before examining what happened (using the video).  I take them through the policy choices facing the US
in 1964, have them write a position paper addressed to LBJ, and then finally lecture about the years
1965-present in a class and a half.  My focus, I guess, is on the origins of the conflict,
its relation to other world events, and the decisions made concerning American involvement through five presidents.
I have also varied the length and included the post-1965 period too at times.
My Lai was included, but not always central. When I did focus on My Lai, I used the
chapter from Teaching Ethical Issues in American History (Teachers College Press)and
the chapter on Vietnam as movie, in Davidson & Lytle's After the Fact.

Now to sound like one of the students:  Dr. Young, is this what you wanted??
David Weiss
South Side HS
Rockville Centre, NY
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:19:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         David Weiss 
Subject:      Dr. Young's original post

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:01:41 -0500, Marilyn Young  wrote:

>Dear Colleagues,
>
>Almost everything written about the Vietnam war.....

I teach high school, and have included a unit on the Vietnam conflict in my
 International Baccaluareate History Class.  Within that course, the
 Vietnam Conflict fits under four of the seven 20th c. history  categories:
 Decolonization and nationalism in the 20th c., The Rise of Single Party
 States, East/West Relations since 1945, and War & Peace in the 20th C.
Thus it can serve as an excellent TEXT in relation to other 20th c events.
I teach Vietnam after units on WWII in the Pacific, The Origins of the Cold War,
and the Cuban Revolution and the Cuban Missile Crisis.  So by the time I
 get to it the students already know about the role Indochina played as a
 factor for American involvement in the Pacific War; they have learned
about the creation of a Sino-Soviet Bloc, and its eventual split after the
 Cuban Crisis; about the role of a charasmatic figure (Castro) in a
revolution and quite a bit else that will enable them to understand the
context of Vietnam.

To teach the unit I go back to French colonialism utlizing Vietnam: A TV
series, the use the role playing exercise on the Geneva conference of 1954
 from the CHOICES series (Brown University Center for Foreign Policy
Development), have them read primary source  material including the
Vietnamese Declaration of Independence and as we follow the chronology
forward, ask them to make decisions (should truman have recognized the new
 viet minh gov't?)before examining what happened (using the video).  I take
 them through the policy choices facing the US in 1964, have them write a
position paper addressed to LBJ, and then finally lecture about the years
1965-present in a class and a half.  My focus, I guess, is on the origins
 of the conflict, its relation to other world events, and the decisions
made concerning  American involvement through five presidents.
I have also varied the length and included the post-1965 period too at
times. My Lai was included, but not always central. When I did focus on
My Lai, I used the chapter from Teaching Ethical Issues in American History (Teachers College Press)and
the chapter on Vietnam as movie, in Davidson & Lytle's After the Fact.

Now to sound like one of the students:  Dr. Young, is this what you wanted??
David Weiss
South Side HS
Rockville Centre, NY
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:53:26 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I saw a interview recently with Merle Haggard and he said his intention
of "Okie from Muskogee" was NOT for "red-neck" purposes and that he was
stoned on grass when he cut the record.  Interesting, huh?  Apparently,
even Johnny Cash mistook Merle's intention and chewed him out publicly
for inciting derision against long hairs.

Billy Joel's song, if I'm not mistaken, is actually called, "Goodnight
Saigon" and not "Parris Island."

I have the original 45 rpm record(complete with rumbles and scratches)of
Staff Sergeant Barry Sadler's "Ballad of the Green Berets."

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam vet)
Program Director/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
swain@briar-cliff.edu
712.279.5483


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Shaffer [mailto:roshaf@ARK.SHIP.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 1:59 PM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Country Joe McDonald


        At the risk of trivializing a fascinating discussion on how to
teach the Vietnam War, I have to say that I was floored by Carl
Schulkin's
post about using "Fixin' to Die Rag" and "Okie from Muskogee" in a class
on Vietnam.  The reason I was floored is that I thought _I_ was the only
one who thought up that particular pedagogical technique, which I used
several years ago in a course at Rutgers-Newark on the U.S. since 1945.
In preparing for my course this semester at Shippensburg University on
U.S. diplomatic history, I had been thinking about _not_ repeating the
exercise, for fear that it would take too much time away from analyzing
other documents.  But after turning to my e-mail this morning and seeing
a
post from Country Joe himself, of course I _have_ to use the songs.  In
my
Rutgers class, by the way, I also included the theme song from "The
Green
Berets" (which I have not found on any records or tapes, and used from
the
film itself) along with "Volunteers of America" by the Jefferson
Airplane
and "Parris Island" (I believe that was the title) by Billy Joel.  (I
might add that in teaching the U.S. entry into World War I, I regularly
use original recordings of "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be a Soldier" with
"Over There," an idea which had been suggested at a training workshop
for
NYC high school teachers which I attended about a dozen years ago.)
        I might add that the document that I have assigned to all my
students, high school (excerpted) or college (full version), since I
have
started teaching, is Martin Luther King's "Declaration of Independence
From the War in Vietnam" (April 1967), which is available in the
Young-Gettleman-Franklin-Franklin collection, _Vietnam and America_,
previously mentioned on this list, and in many other sources.  It is in
my
view the most accessible radical analysis of the war for students, and
illustrates the way that the issue of Vietnam became intertwined with
other social movements of the time.  The fact that it is Martin Luther
King, who most students identify mainly as a hero with a vaguely
idealistic "dream," is particularly helpful, and can raise issues about
how we remember his legacy.  High school teachers, by the way, might be
able to use this document even when not teaching the Vietnam War per se,
as many high schools ask teachers to devote a session to Martin Luther
King around the January 15 holiday.  (I know I was so asked, when I
taught
high school.)
        I might add also that I always ask students to look at the
language of the Geneva Accords of 1954, which promise elections and
reunification, and which clearly indicate that there is one nation of
Vietnam, in juxtaposition with Johnson's repeated invocation (as in his
Johns Hopkins University speech of April 7, 1965) of the "independent
nation
of South Viet-Nam."  Another juxtaposition is of LBJ's 1961 joint press
conference with Diem, praising Diem to the skies, and the Henry Cabot
Lodge cables of 1963 plotting the assassination of Diem.  These
documents,
which can be fairly easily edited for classroom handouts, are all in the
Young et al collection, if I am not mistaken.  (I don't have my copy in
front of me here.)
        On a more pessimistic note, I was surprised in my class on U.S.
diplomatic history yesterday that my students were on the whole cynical
about Ho Chi Minh's 1945 Declaration of Independence, several
attributing
the language to a typical Communist ruse to fool Americans and the
world.
I had expected (hoped that?) my students to see the American failure to
support this independence movement as a disjunction between U.S.
rhetoric
and reality.
        The timing of this list -- toward the end of the semester for
college teachers, when I imagine many of us are discussing Vietnam -- is
good for me.  And my regards to my former professor Marilyn Young, whose
book, _The Vietnam Wars_, I have been rereading yet again as I prepare
for
these two (unfortunately too brief) class sessions on Vietnam.

-- Robert Shaffer
History Department
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
>         Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
> lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and
I
> devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
> school and college students.  To help students understand the
polarization
> of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the
students.
> First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE
RAG.
> After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
> students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then
play
> Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
> ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not
found
> an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late
1960s
> and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
> please post it to the list.
>
> Carl Schulkin
> Pembroke Hill School
> Kansas City, MO 64112
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:12:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Steve Brawley's note on cab driver vet
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

RE; Country Joe's missive on the unknowing cab driver vet...

Interesting about the cabbie not knowing...but not surprising.  So many
G.I.s were stationed for their full tours in compounds with minimal
contact with the "outside world."

Yeah, the aussie's distinguished themselves with several armored units,
mostly in IV Corps (Delta) I believe.  They were, typically, a
swashbuckling group.

The Koreans ("Rocks" as we called them...R.O.K. Republic of Korea)were
mercenary.  My personal contact with the ROKs was that they were all
black-belts in martial arts, were paid three times what American GIs
were paid and had all the privileges (PX, service club, commissary,
etc.) that GIs did, and were feared the most by villagers.  There were
stories about how entire villages vacated when they heard the ROKs were
coming!

The Thais, in my experience in III Corps, were used primarily at guards
for PXs and other installations...pretty soft duty.

The Filippinos distinguished themselves mostly in humanitarian causes by
way of PHILCAG (Philippine Civic Action Group)re-building schools,
churches, temples and conducting in-field medical clinics.  Good way to
win hearts and minds!  Unfortunately, there weren't enough of them.

My view is that, because of the SEATO treaty, our "allies" had to show
some unity with the U.S. in the Viet-Nam war but, other than the
Australians and Koreans, the others were pretty much token forces and
mostly non-combat.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam vet)
Program Director/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
swain@briar-cliff.edu
712.279.5483
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:00:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Andrew 
Subject:      Re: Other Flags/Other Voices
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19981203152946.00cb38cc@is2.nyu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>A recent conference sponsored by the German Historical Institute focused on
>putting the American war in an international context -- there were papers
>on Thailand, the Western allies and Australia -- and at some point I expect
>there will be a conference volume.  Gavan McCormack's book on Australia and
>the Korean war (Cold War/Hot War) concludes with some reflections on
>Australia and Vietnam and probably Australia's participation in the Vietnam
>war should be looked at in terms of its prior cooperation in Korea.  George
>Kahin's book, Intervention, has some illuminating things to say on the many
>flags program.
>
While I've used A VIETCONG MEMOIR to good effect in my undergrad. seminar
on the War in Viet Nam, has anyone had a chance to read a new volume on the
war by Tai Sung An? Title is THE VIETNAM WAR, and it focuses almost
entirely on Hanoi's perspective. - published by Fairleigh Dickinson Univ.
Press this year.
John Andrew

John Andrew                               email: J_ANDREW@ACAD.FANDM.EDU
Department of History                     fax 717-399-4518
Franklin and Marshall College
Lancaster, PA. 17604-3003

"Fantasy Will Set You Free" - Steppenwolf
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:18:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Robert Shaffer 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
In-Reply-To:  
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        Ralph Swain is indeed correct about the title of the Billy Joel
song.  Sorry about that error, and the information about Merle Haggard's
state of mind when he wrote "Okie from Muskogee" is interesting.  I was
always struck when listening to that song, which is a warm plea for
respecting authority, that Haggard has had a lot more trouble with the law
than most antiwar protesters ever had.  On the Merle Haggard "Best of..."
album (1972), from which I took the song, the song after "Okie" is "The
Fighting Side of Me," about ending up in prison and all that -- a typical
country-western motif.

        A request for Country Joe, if he logs onto his e-mail before my 2
pm (EST) class today.  Was "Fixin' to Die Rag" a response to "Ballad of
the Green Berets"?  If not, was there any particular event which
occasioned the writing of the song, or was it a general response to the
war by 1968?


-- Robert Shaffer
History Department
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Swain, Ralph wrote:

> I saw a interview recently with Merle Haggard and he said his intention
> of "Okie from Muskogee" was NOT for "red-neck" purposes and that he was
> stoned on grass when he cut the record.  Interesting, huh?  Apparently,
> even Johnny Cash mistook Merle's intention and chewed him out publicly
> for inciting derision against long hairs.
>
> Billy Joel's song, if I'm not mistaken, is actually called, "Goodnight
> Saigon" and not "Parris Island."
>
> I have the original 45 rpm record(complete with rumbles and scratches)of
> Staff Sergeant Barry Sadler's "Ballad of the Green Berets."
>
> Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam vet)
> Program Director/Dept. of Mass Communications
> Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
> Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
> swain@briar-cliff.edu
> 712.279.5483
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Shaffer [mailto:roshaf@ARK.SHIP.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 1:59 PM
> To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Country Joe McDonald
>
>
>         At the risk of trivializing a fascinating discussion on how to
> teach the Vietnam War, I have to say that I was floored by Carl
> Schulkin's
> post about using "Fixin' to Die Rag" and "Okie from Muskogee" in a class
> on Vietnam.  The reason I was floored is that I thought _I_ was the only
> one who thought up that particular pedagogical technique, which I used
> several years ago in a course at Rutgers-Newark on the U.S. since 1945.
> In preparing for my course this semester at Shippensburg University on
> U.S. diplomatic history, I had been thinking about _not_ repeating the
> exercise, for fear that it would take too much time away from analyzing
> other documents.  But after turning to my e-mail this morning and seeing
> a
> post from Country Joe himself, of course I _have_ to use the songs.  In
> my
> Rutgers class, by the way, I also included the theme song from "The
> Green
> Berets" (which I have not found on any records or tapes, and used from
> the
> film itself) along with "Volunteers of America" by the Jefferson
> Airplane
> and "Parris Island" (I believe that was the title) by Billy Joel.  (I
> might add that in teaching the U.S. entry into World War I, I regularly
> use original recordings of "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be a Soldier" with
> "Over There," an idea which had been suggested at a training workshop
> for
> NYC high school teachers which I attended about a dozen years ago.)
>         I might add that the document that I have assigned to all my
> students, high school (excerpted) or college (full version), since I
> have
> started teaching, is Martin Luther King's "Declaration of Independence
> From the War in Vietnam" (April 1967), which is available in the
> Young-Gettleman-Franklin-Franklin collection, _Vietnam and America_,
> previously mentioned on this list, and in many other sources.  It is in
> my
> view the most accessible radical analysis of the war for students, and
> illustrates the way that the issue of Vietnam became intertwined with
> other social movements of the time.  The fact that it is Martin Luther
> King, who most students identify mainly as a hero with a vaguely
> idealistic "dream," is particularly helpful, and can raise issues about
> how we remember his legacy.  High school teachers, by the way, might be
> able to use this document even when not teaching the Vietnam War per se,
> as many high schools ask teachers to devote a session to Martin Luther
> King around the January 15 holiday.  (I know I was so asked, when I
> taught
> high school.)
>         I might add also that I always ask students to look at the
> language of the Geneva Accords of 1954, which promise elections and
> reunification, and which clearly indicate that there is one nation of
> Vietnam, in juxtaposition with Johnson's repeated invocation (as in his
> Johns Hopkins University speech of April 7, 1965) of the "independent
> nation
> of South Viet-Nam."  Another juxtaposition is of LBJ's 1961 joint press
> conference with Diem, praising Diem to the skies, and the Henry Cabot
> Lodge cables of 1963 plotting the assassination of Diem.  These
> documents,
> which can be fairly easily edited for classroom handouts, are all in the
> Young et al collection, if I am not mistaken.  (I don't have my copy in
> front of me here.)
>         On a more pessimistic note, I was surprised in my class on U.S.
> diplomatic history yesterday that my students were on the whole cynical
> about Ho Chi Minh's 1945 Declaration of Independence, several
> attributing
> the language to a typical Communist ruse to fool Americans and the
> world.
> I had expected (hoped that?) my students to see the American failure to
> support this independence movement as a disjunction between U.S.
> rhetoric
> and reality.
>         The timing of this list -- toward the end of the semester for
> college teachers, when I imagine many of us are discussing Vietnam -- is
> good for me.  And my regards to my former professor Marilyn Young, whose
> book, _The Vietnam Wars_, I have been rereading yet again as I prepare
> for
> these two (unfortunately too brief) class sessions on Vietnam.
>
> -- Robert Shaffer
> History Department
> Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:
>
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >         Reading Country Joe McDonald's post reminded me of a very good
> > lesson about the homefront during the Vietnam War that a colleague and
> I
> > devised several years ago.  It is very simple and appeals to both high
> > school and college students.  To help students understand the
> polarization
> > of public opinion during the late 1960s, we play two songs for the
> students.
> > First, we play Country Joe and the Fish, I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN TO DIE
> RAG.
> > After discussing the point of view expressed in that song (and letting
> > students know that it was performed at Woodstock in 1969), we then
> play
> > Merle Haggard's OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE.  A very lively discussion usually
> > ensues.  The one question raised by our discussions which I have not
> found
> > an answer to is:  Which of these songs sold more copies in the late
> 1960s
> > and early 1970s?  If anyone knows of a source to answer that question,
> > please post it to the list.
> >
> > Carl Schulkin
> > Pembroke Hill School
> > Kansas City, MO 64112
> >
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:09:45 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert Shaffer wrote:

>         Ralph Swain is indeed correct about the title of the Billy Joel
> song.  Sorry about that error, and the information about Merle Haggard's
> state of mind when he wrote "Okie from Muskogee" is interesting.  I was
> always struck when listening to that song, which is a warm plea for
> respecting authority, that Haggard has had a lot more trouble with the law
> than most antiwar protesters ever had.  On the Merle Haggard "Best of..."
> album (1972), from which I took the song, the song after "Okie" is "The
> Fighting Side of Me," about ending up in prison and all that -- a typical
> country-western motif.
>
>         A request for Country Joe, if he logs onto his e-mail before my 2
> pm (EST) class today.  Was "Fixin' to Die Rag" a response to "Ballad of
> the Green Berets"?  If not, was there any particular event which
> occasioned the writing of the song, or was it a general response to the
> war by 1968?
>
> -- Robert Shaffer
> History Department
> Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania
>

i wrote the song in summer of 1965 and released it as an EP 7 inch 33 1/3
Extended Play record sold at the "Teach In" held in 1965 at Univ Cal
Berkeley.  i was working on a song for an anti vietnam war play at the time
and had just finished the song "Who Am I?" when the Rag just popped into my
head it was written in about 30 minutes.   the unique thing about the song is
that it does not blame soldiers for the war it blames generals.   cheers,
country joe mcdonald


   -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins
.003 milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me
Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:09:14 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Opening Statement
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sure and not just me. As you can tell from the responses thus far, there
are many of us teaching the subject, at various levels and from various
angles and the more sharing of resources, ideas, concerns, the better.  Is
there any segment of the excellent course you outline the students find
especially difficult? What sort of resistances (if any) do you meet?



At 11:15 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I teach high school, and have included a unit on the Vietnam conflict in by
> International Baccaluareate History Class.  Within that course, the
> Vietnam Conflict fits under four of the seven 20th c. history  categories:
> Decolonization and nationalism in the 20th c., The Rise of Single Party
> States, East/West Relations since 1945, and War & Peace in the 20th C.
>Thus it can serve as an excellent TEXT in relation to other 20th c events.
>I teach Vietnam after units on WWII in the Pacific, The Origins of the
Cold War,
>and the Cuban Revolution and the Cuban Missile Crisis.  So by the time I
get to it
>the students already know about the role Indochina played as a factor for
American involvement
>in the Pacific War; they have learned about the creation of a Sino-Soviet
Bloc, and
>its eventual split after the Cuban Crisis; about the role of a charasmatic
figure (Castro) in a revolution
>and quite a bit else that will enable them to understand the context of
Vietnam.
>
>To teach the unit I go back to French colonialism utlizing Vietnam: A TV
series, the use the
>role playing exercise on the Geneva conference of 1954 from the CHOICES
>series (Brown University Center for Foreign Policy Development), have them
read primary source
> material including the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence and as we
follow the chronology
>forward, ask them to make decisions (should truman have recognized the new
viet minh gov't?)
>before examining what happened (using the video).  I take them through the
policy choices facing the US
>in 1964, have them write a position paper addressed to LBJ, and then
finally lecture about the years
>1965-present in a class and a half.  My focus, I guess, is on the origins
of the conflict,
>its relation to other world events, and the decisions made concerning
American involvement through five presidents.
>I have also varied the length and included the post-1965 period too at times.
>My Lai was included, but not always central. When I did focus on My Lai, I
used the
>chapter from Teaching Ethical Issues in American History (Teachers College
Press)and
>the chapter on Vietnam as movie, in Davidson & Lytle's After the Fact.
>
>Now to sound like one of the students:  Dr. Young, is this what you wanted??
>David Weiss
>South Side HS
>Rockville Centre, NY
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 12:11:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Angie Tran 
Organization: CSU Monterey Bay
Subject:      The Vietnamese side of the war
Comments: cc: Gerald_Shenk@monterey.edu, Rina_Benmayor@monterey.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:

I feel privileged to participate in this wonderful forum and have
learned a lot from the exchanges. I totally support the view that we
need to consciously incorporate the Vietnamese side of the war into
courses on Vietnam/American war. Gerald Shenk (social history) and I
(political economy) have tried various ways to approach this goal at
CSU Monterey Bay.

In Spring 1997, we co-taught a course entitled "COMPARATIVE SOCIAL
HISTORY AND POLITICAL ECONOMY: THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM SINCE
1945" from two disciplinary and multi-cultural perspectives (American
and Vietnamese). We assigned your book, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990, as
one of our main textbooks (our students really liked and learned a lot
from it!), and we will co-teach this course again in Fall 1999.

Our approach to teaching the war is to provide an in-depth comparative
analysis of society, political-economy, and culture, in historical
perspectives for the United States and Vietnam since World War II. We
think it is important to stress the social-economic foundations of the
war and the dilemmas in POSTWAR Vietnam. So, we provided the context of
colonialism, during and after the Vietnam/American war, and compared
and contrasted the cultures of Vietnam and the United States, and
explored ways in which these cultures shaped the course of the
Vietnam/American war and subsequent relations between the two
countries. Hence, the postwar aspects are important in bringing more
relevance and connections to students’ lives.

We presented these issues in a balanced and holistic way, using sources
from both countries, including official documents, textbooks, memoirs,
fiction, poetry,  films, photography and music (a very challenging job
since we had little time in just one semester!). We were very keen on
incorporating personal accounts about the war from memoirs,
first-person narratives/experiences, especially from women’s
perspectives which are less often heard. We found that our students
really enjoyed reading literature and can relate better to these
personal stories/accounts. We also invited Vietnamese scholars/military
personnel who lived through the war, U.S. military personnel of
different ethnic backgrounds who fought in Vietnam, so students had the
opportunity to meet and interact directly with these guest speakers.

As a friendly suggestion, I think perhaps we need to rethink the name
of such course. “Vietnam War” is commonly used but does not necessarily
reflect what the Vietnamese people themselves think about the war: many
considered it the “US war.” I suggest we think of ways to renaming it:
for instance, “US-VN social history and political economy” (so the
“war” is embedded in a broader, more balanced, multi-cultural,
inter-disciplinary perspectives); or “Vietnam/American war” (as
suggested by Sean Brawley in his December 3 email). I’d appreciate your
inputs on this.

Also, while it might be common that students are more interested in the
American side at the beginning of the course, it does not always remain
that way as the course progressed. From the very beginning, we asked
our students to introduce themselves in terms of their relationships to
the course topics and their expectations from the course. We ourselves
shared why we are passionate about teaching this course. This kind of
mutual sharing broke the ice, increased the trust among ourselves,
raised students’ interests in both perspectives, and commenced our
course really nicely. Reflections from both students and professors at
the end of our course demonstrated that we learned a lot from each
other's experiences and that interests on BOTH sides prevailed.

Finally, I’d like to share some sources (among many other sources on
American perspectives that we used) from the Vietnamese perspectives to
make sure that voices from many sides in Vietnam are heard. We assigned
readings on the war issues and postwar dilemmas.

War issues:

Doan Van Toai and David Chanoff, ‘Vietnam’ A portrait of its People at
War, 1996; St. Martin’s Press; New York

Hoang Van Chi, From Colonialism to Communism, 1964. Pall Mall Press,
London & Dunmow

Huynh Sanh Thong, An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems, 1996; Yale
University  Press

Le Ly Hayslip with Jay Wurts, When Heaven and Earth Changed Places, 1990
A Plume Book

Martin, Earl S., Reaching the Other Side, New York: Crown Publishers,
1978

Ngo Vinh Long, “Vietnam,” Coming to Terms: Indochina, the United
States, and the War, 1991, Westview Press

Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnam: Lotus in a Sea of Fire, 1967, The Colonial
Press Inc., Clinton, Massachusetts

Postwar issues:

Melanie Beresford, “Issues in Economic Unification: overcoming the
legacy of separation” in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in socialist
development, Cornell Southeast Asia Program

Le Duc Thuy, “Economic Doi Moi in Vietnam: Content, Achievements, and
Prospects” in Turley, William S. and Mark Selden, Reinventing
Vietnamese Socialism: Doi Moi in Comparative Perspective, 1993;
Westview Press

Nguyen Huyen Chau, “Women and Family Planning Policies in Postwar
Vietnam”, 1988, in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in Socialist Development,
Cornell Southeast Asia Program

Tran Thi Que, “Gender Issues in Vietnam’s Development”, 1995, in
Vietnam In A Changing World, Curzon Press

Angie Ngoc Tran, “Through the Eye of the Needle: Vietnamese Textile and
Garment Industries Rejoining the Global Economy,” in Crossroads: An
Interdisciplinary Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 10(2),
Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University, 1997

Nguyen Huy Thiep, “Remembrance of the Countryside,” in Vietnam: A
Traveler’s Literary Companion, 1996; Whereabouts Press (There is also a
beautiful film based on this story with English subtitles).

These are just some thoughts. We’d love to learn more from your ideas,
experiences, pedagogies and sources.

Sincerely,
Angie Ngoc Tran
Social and Behavioral Sciences Center
California State University at Monterey Bay
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:53:04 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Carl Schulkin 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:

        I have followed the discussion of teaching the Vietnamese side of
the war with great interest.  In our American Civilization survey course, we
devote only two or three class periods to the Vietnam War, but we have
periodically discussed expanding that amount of time by assigning Le Ly
Hayslip's, WHEN HEAVEN AND EARTH CHANGED PLACES as a means of postholing.
Angie Ngoc Tran listed this book in her bibiliography and it reminded me
that I have not seen any discussion of it yet.  If there is anyone on the
listserv who has assigned that book, I would appreciate hearing about your
experiences with it, both positive and negative.  I would be particularly
interested in student responses and the types of written assignments that
you have used at either the high school or college level.

Carl Schulkin
Pembroke Hill School
Kansas City, MO 64112
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:03:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Response to Angie Ngoc Tran @ CSU Monterey Bay and listserv members:

I have used the course title, "The Viet-Nam Experience," to describe my
3-credit, 10-week course which I have been teaching since the early
1980s (except for a three-year hiatus whereby I had to decompress from
the "experience")

It IS very important to cover the "war" from all sides.  I provide the
students an extensive reading list (except for a handful of novels which
I am not entirely in agreement with my literary colleagues regarding
their usefulness from a factual perspective).  Topics include: the
anti-war perspective, combat trauma, historical & political, oral
histories & memoirs, photographic works, women who served, Vietnamese
perspective and cinema.

On the Vietnamese perspective it is, of course, important to have
readings and sources from the North Vietnames, the Viet Cong and the
South Vietnamese loyalist perspectives. Sources I use include:

"In the Jaws of History" by Bui Diem 1987 Houghton
"The Sorrow of War" by Bao Ninh 1993 Pantheon
"Novel Without A Name" by Duong Thu Huong 1995 Wm. Morrow & Co.
"Vietcong Memoir" by Tuon Nhu Tang 1985 Harcourt Brace

U.S. women's roles include:

"Home Before Morning" by Lynda Van Devanter 1983 (this one really grabs
both the men and women in class)
"In the Combat Zone" by Kathryn Marshall 1987
"A Piece of My Heart" by Keith Walker 1985.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam Vet)
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu




-----Original Message-----
From: Angie Tran [mailto:Angie_Tran@MONTEREY.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 2:11 PM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: The Vietnamese side of the war


Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:

I feel privileged to participate in this wonderful forum and have
learned a lot from the exchanges. I totally support the view that we
need to consciously incorporate the Vietnamese side of the war into
courses on Vietnam/American war. Gerald Shenk (social history) and I
(political economy) have tried various ways to approach this goal at
CSU Monterey Bay.

In Spring 1997, we co-taught a course entitled "COMPARATIVE SOCIAL
HISTORY AND POLITICAL ECONOMY: THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM SINCE
1945" from two disciplinary and multi-cultural perspectives (American
and Vietnamese). We assigned your book, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990, as
one of our main textbooks (our students really liked and learned a lot
from it!), and we will co-teach this course again in Fall 1999.

Our approach to teaching the war is to provide an in-depth comparative
analysis of society, political-economy, and culture, in historical
perspectives for the United States and Vietnam since World War II. We
think it is important to stress the social-economic foundations of the
war and the dilemmas in POSTWAR Vietnam. So, we provided the context of
colonialism, during and after the Vietnam/American war, and compared
and contrasted the cultures of Vietnam and the United States, and
explored ways in which these cultures shaped the course of the
Vietnam/American war and subsequent relations between the two
countries. Hence, the postwar aspects are important in bringing more
relevance and connections to students? lives.

We presented these issues in a balanced and holistic way, using sources
from both countries, including official documents, textbooks, memoirs,
fiction, poetry,  films, photography and music (a very challenging job
since we had little time in just one semester!). We were very keen on
incorporating personal accounts about the war from memoirs,
first-person narratives/experiences, especially from women?s
perspectives which are less often heard. We found that our students
really enjoyed reading literature and can relate better to these
personal stories/accounts. We also invited Vietnamese scholars/military
personnel who lived through the war, U.S. military personnel of
different ethnic backgrounds who fought in Vietnam, so students had the
opportunity to meet and interact directly with these guest speakers.

As a friendly suggestion, I think perhaps we need to rethink the name
of such course. ?Vietnam War? is commonly used but does not necessarily
reflect what the Vietnamese people themselves think about the war: many
considered it the ?US war.? I suggest we think of ways to renaming it:
for instance, ?US-VN social history and political economy? (so the
?war? is embedded in a broader, more balanced, multi-cultural,
inter-disciplinary perspectives); or ?Vietnam/American war? (as
suggested by Sean Brawley in his December 3 email). I?d appreciate your
inputs on this.

Also, while it might be common that students are more interested in the
American side at the beginning of the course, it does not always remain
that way as the course progressed. From the very beginning, we asked
our students to introduce themselves in terms of their relationships to
the course topics and their expectations from the course. We ourselves
shared why we are passionate about teaching this course. This kind of
mutual sharing broke the ice, increased the trust among ourselves,
raised students? interests in both perspectives, and commenced our
course really nicely. Reflections from both students and professors at
the end of our course demonstrated that we learned a lot from each
other's experiences and that interests on BOTH sides prevailed.

Finally, I?d like to share some sources (among many other sources on
American perspectives that we used) from the Vietnamese perspectives to
make sure that voices from many sides in Vietnam are heard. We assigned
readings on the war issues and postwar dilemmas.

War issues:

Doan Van Toai and David Chanoff, ?Vietnam? A portrait of its People at
War, 1996; St. Martin?s Press; New York

Hoang Van Chi, From Colonialism to Communism, 1964. Pall Mall Press,
London & Dunmow

Huynh Sanh Thong, An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems, 1996; Yale
University  Press

Le Ly Hayslip with Jay Wurts, When Heaven and Earth Changed Places, 1990
A Plume Book

Martin, Earl S., Reaching the Other Side, New York: Crown Publishers,
1978

Ngo Vinh Long, ?Vietnam,? Coming to Terms: Indochina, the United
States, and the War, 1991, Westview Press

Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnam: Lotus in a Sea of Fire, 1967, The Colonial
Press Inc., Clinton, Massachusetts

Postwar issues:

Melanie Beresford, ?Issues in Economic Unification: overcoming the
legacy of separation? in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in socialist
development, Cornell Southeast Asia Program

Le Duc Thuy, ?Economic Doi Moi in Vietnam: Content, Achievements, and
Prospects? in Turley, William S. and Mark Selden, Reinventing
Vietnamese Socialism: Doi Moi in Comparative Perspective, 1993;
Westview Press

Nguyen Huyen Chau, ?Women and Family Planning Policies in Postwar
Vietnam?, 1988, in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in Socialist Development,
Cornell Southeast Asia Program

Tran Thi Que, ?Gender Issues in Vietnam?s Development?, 1995, in
Vietnam In A Changing World, Curzon Press

Angie Ngoc Tran, ?Through the Eye of the Needle: Vietnamese Textile and
Garment Industries Rejoining the Global Economy,? in Crossroads: An
Interdisciplinary Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 10(2),
Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University, 1997

Nguyen Huy Thiep, ?Remembrance of the Countryside,? in Vietnam: A
Traveler?s Literary Companion, 1996; Whereabouts Press (There is also a
beautiful film based on this story with English subtitles).

These are just some thoughts. We?d love to learn more from your ideas,
experiences, pedagogies and sources.

Sincerely,
Angie Ngoc Tran
Social and Behavioral Sciences Center
California State University at Monterey Bay
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:41:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The course sounds really wonderful and the bibliography very helpful. How
did you get hold of the film made from Thiep's story? Last time I was in
Vietnam, the only known copy had been shipped out for showing at a festival
and I've lost track of it since then.  Have you looked at (and what do you
think of) Kolko's ANATOMY OF A PEACE? or Gareth Porter's book on
bureaucratic socialism in post-war Vietnam? Possible additions to the
literature, with which you are perhaps familiar:  Le Luu's A Time Far Past
and, for the period to 1954, Nguyen Mai's THE RUBBER TREE.  I agree that
Vietnam war is a misnomer but so, perhaps, is Vietnam-American war. I like
your more general title but if 'war' did have to appear, maybe
American-Indochina wars would cover it best. That way, even if you don't
get to cover it in class, Cambodia and Laos are included. Both Karen Turner
and Sandra Taylor have recent books on the experience of Vietnamese women
during the war which could be usefully paired with accounts by and of
American women (IN THE COMBAT ZONE comes to mind, but also Linda Van
Dervanter and a collection of narratives whose editor I've forgotten but
which is a preface by, of all people, the comedian Martha Ray). Should your
course expand to the year it probably deserves and it's possible to deal
with the experience of Vietnamese who came to the US post war, there's a
growing body of fiction and memoirs:  Lan Cao's MONKEY BRIDGE, Wayne
Karlin, Le Minh Khue & Truong Vu's THE OTHER SIDE OF HEAVEN has some short
stories, as does, I believe, the anthology by Kevin Bowen and Bruce Weigl.
Weigl also edited a collection of translated captured PAVN diaries (UMass
press) which are very effective in juxtaposition to something like the
volume of collected letters home (DEAR AMERICA?) published several years ago.


At 12:11 PM 12/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:
>
>I feel privileged to participate in this wonderful forum and have
>learned a lot from the exchanges. I totally support the view that we
>need to consciously incorporate the Vietnamese side of the war into
>courses on Vietnam/American war. Gerald Shenk (social history) and I
>(political economy) have tried various ways to approach this goal at
>CSU Monterey Bay.
>
>In Spring 1997, we co-taught a course entitled "COMPARATIVE SOCIAL
>HISTORY AND POLITICAL ECONOMY: THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM SINCE
>1945" from two disciplinary and multi-cultural perspectives (American
>and Vietnamese). We assigned your book, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990, as
>one of our main textbooks (our students really liked and learned a lot
>from it!), and we will co-teach this course again in Fall 1999.
>
>Our approach to teaching the war is to provide an in-depth comparative
>analysis of society, political-economy, and culture, in historical
>perspectives for the United States and Vietnam since World War II. We
>think it is important to stress the social-economic foundations of the
>war and the dilemmas in POSTWAR Vietnam. So, we provided the context of
>colonialism, during and after the Vietnam/American war, and compared
>and contrasted the cultures of Vietnam and the United States, and
>explored ways in which these cultures shaped the course of the
>Vietnam/American war and subsequent relations between the two
>countries. Hence, the postwar aspects are important in bringing more
>relevance and connections to students’ lives.
>
>We presented these issues in a balanced and holistic way, using sources
>from both countries, including official documents, textbooks, memoirs,
>fiction, poetry,  films, photography and music (a very challenging job
>since we had little time in just one semester!). We were very keen on
>incorporating personal accounts about the war from memoirs,
>first-person narratives/experiences, especially from women’s
>perspectives which are less often heard. We found that our students
>really enjoyed reading literature and can relate better to these
>personal stories/accounts. We also invited Vietnamese scholars/military
>personnel who lived through the war, U.S. military personnel of
>different ethnic backgrounds who fought in Vietnam, so students had the
>opportunity to meet and interact directly with these guest speakers.
>
>As a friendly suggestion, I think perhaps we need to rethink the name
>of such course. “Vietnam War” is commonly used but does not necessarily
>reflect what the Vietnamese people themselves think about the war: many
>considered it the “US war.” I suggest we think of ways to renaming it:
>for instance, “US-VN social history and political economy” (so the
>“war” is embedded in a broader, more balanced, multi-cultural,
>inter-disciplinary perspectives); or “Vietnam/American war” (as
>suggested by Sean Brawley in his December 3 email). I’d appreciate your
>inputs on this.
>
>Also, while it might be common that students are more interested in the
>American side at the beginning of the course, it does not always remain
>that way as the course progressed. From the very beginning, we asked
>our students to introduce themselves in terms of their relationships to
>the course topics and their expectations from the course. We ourselves
>shared why we are passionate about teaching this course. This kind of
>mutual sharing broke the ice, increased the trust among ourselves,
>raised students’ interests in both perspectives, and commenced our
>course really nicely. Reflections from both students and professors at
>the end of our course demonstrated that we learned a lot from each
>other's experiences and that interests on BOTH sides prevailed.
>
>Finally, I’d like to share some sources (among many other sources on
>American perspectives that we used) from the Vietnamese perspectives to
>make sure that voices from many sides in Vietnam are heard. We assigned
>readings on the war issues and postwar dilemmas.
>
>War issues:
>
>Doan Van Toai and David Chanoff, ‘Vietnam’ A portrait of its People at
>War, 1996; St. Martin’s Press; New York
>
>Hoang Van Chi, From Colonialism to Communism, 1964. Pall Mall Press,
>London & Dunmow
>
>Huynh Sanh Thong, An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems, 1996; Yale
>University  Press
>
>Le Ly Hayslip with Jay Wurts, When Heaven and Earth Changed Places, 1990
>A Plume Book
>
>Martin, Earl S., Reaching the Other Side, New York: Crown Publishers,
>1978
>
>Ngo Vinh Long, “Vietnam,” Coming to Terms: Indochina, the United
>States, and the War, 1991, Westview Press
>
>Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnam: Lotus in a Sea of Fire, 1967, The Colonial
>Press Inc., Clinton, Massachusetts
>
>Postwar issues:
>
>Melanie Beresford, “Issues in Economic Unification: overcoming the
>legacy of separation” in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in socialist
>development, Cornell Southeast Asia Program
>
>Le Duc Thuy, “Economic Doi Moi in Vietnam: Content, Achievements, and
>Prospects” in Turley, William S. and Mark Selden, Reinventing
>Vietnamese Socialism: Doi Moi in Comparative Perspective, 1993;
>Westview Press
>
>Nguyen Huyen Chau, “Women and Family Planning Policies in Postwar
>Vietnam”, 1988, in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in Socialist Development,
>Cornell Southeast Asia Program
>
>Tran Thi Que, “Gender Issues in Vietnam’s Development”, 1995, in
>Vietnam In A Changing World, Curzon Press
>
>Angie Ngoc Tran, “Through the Eye of the Needle: Vietnamese Textile and
>Garment Industries Rejoining the Global Economy,” in Crossroads: An
>Interdisciplinary Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 10(2),
>Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University, 1997
>
>Nguyen Huy Thiep, “Remembrance of the Countryside,” in Vietnam: A
>Traveler’s Literary Companion, 1996; Whereabouts Press (There is also a
>beautiful film based on this story with English subtitles).
>
>These are just some thoughts. We’d love to learn more from your ideas,
>experiences, pedagogies and sources.
>
>Sincerely,
>Angie Ngoc Tran
>Social and Behavioral Sciences Center
>California State University at Monterey Bay
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:52:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19981205205304.03af5b98@gvi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I used it, with some uneasiness, this year.  Students respond very strongly
and their short papers assessing the book were among the best submitted all
term. They are, in a sense, relieved to learn from Hayslip that the NLF was
coercive, sometimes brutal, that the young people who joined did so
serendipitously rather than out of deep conviction, etc. Nor is there any
explanation for the commitment of NLF cadre.  Tang's memoir presents a
different view, of course, but apart from his being a man, he was older and
urban and therefore not representative of the village population. Nguyen
Thi Dinh's memoir, translated by Mai Elliott (excerpted in the
Franklin,Gettleman,Young documents book) offers a radically different view,
but its tone, to an American student's ear, is decidedly propagandistic, as
is the brief brief memoir of a rank and file NLF woman named Ta Thi Kieu.
My uneasiness has to do with precisely how easily this fits into an
analysis of the NLF that sees the broad mass of the peasantry as
essentially apolitical, just wanting peace, coerced by one side or the
other without themselves engaged in politics.  I have also sometimes had
the sense that the narrative encompasses the experience of more than just
Hayslip herself -- but that may be the result of her American collaborator.
 I offer these views very tentatively and look forward to responses. I do
not mean that Hayslip shouldn't be assigned, only that additional readings
on the NLF are necessary if one is to enable students to understand its
appeal.


At 02:53 PM 12/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:
>
>        I have followed the discussion of teaching the Vietnamese side of
>the war with great interest.  In our American Civilization survey course, we
>devote only two or three class periods to the Vietnam War, but we have
>periodically discussed expanding that amount of time by assigning Le Ly
>Hayslip's, WHEN HEAVEN AND EARTH CHANGED PLACES as a means of postholing.
>Angie Ngoc Tran listed this book in her bibiliography and it reminded me
>that I have not seen any discussion of it yet.  If there is anyone on the
>listserv who has assigned that book, I would appreciate hearing about your
>experiences with it, both positive and negative.  I would be particularly
>interested in student responses and the types of written assignments that
>you have used at either the high school or college level.
>
>Carl Schulkin
>Pembroke Hill School
>Kansas City, MO 64112
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:56:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thank you -- you've given the name I was searching for: Keith Walker. AND I
mispelled Van Devanter. Sorry! M.

At 03:03 PM 12/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Response to Angie Ngoc Tran @ CSU Monterey Bay and listserv members:
>
>I have used the course title, "The Viet-Nam Experience," to describe my
>3-credit, 10-week course which I have been teaching since the early
>1980s (except for a three-year hiatus whereby I had to decompress from
>the "experience")
>
>It IS very important to cover the "war" from all sides.  I provide the
>students an extensive reading list (except for a handful of novels which
>I am not entirely in agreement with my literary colleagues regarding
>their usefulness from a factual perspective).  Topics include: the
>anti-war perspective, combat trauma, historical & political, oral
>histories & memoirs, photographic works, women who served, Vietnamese
>perspective and cinema.
>
>On the Vietnamese perspective it is, of course, important to have
>readings and sources from the North Vietnames, the Viet Cong and the
>South Vietnamese loyalist perspectives. Sources I use include:
>
>"In the Jaws of History" by Bui Diem 1987 Houghton
>"The Sorrow of War" by Bao Ninh 1993 Pantheon
>"Novel Without A Name" by Duong Thu Huong 1995 Wm. Morrow & Co.
>"Vietcong Memoir" by Tuon Nhu Tang 1985 Harcourt Brace
>
>U.S. women's roles include:
>
>"Home Before Morning" by Lynda Van Devanter 1983 (this one really grabs
>both the men and women in class)
>"In the Combat Zone" by Kathryn Marshall 1987
>"A Piece of My Heart" by Keith Walker 1985.
>
>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam Vet)
>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>712.279.5483
>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Angie Tran [mailto:Angie_Tran@MONTEREY.EDU]
>Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 2:11 PM
>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: The Vietnamese side of the war
>
>
>Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:
>
>I feel privileged to participate in this wonderful forum and have
>learned a lot from the exchanges. I totally support the view that we
>need to consciously incorporate the Vietnamese side of the war into
>courses on Vietnam/American war. Gerald Shenk (social history) and I
>(political economy) have tried various ways to approach this goal at
>CSU Monterey Bay.
>
>In Spring 1997, we co-taught a course entitled "COMPARATIVE SOCIAL
>HISTORY AND POLITICAL ECONOMY: THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM SINCE
>1945" from two disciplinary and multi-cultural perspectives (American
>and Vietnamese). We assigned your book, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990, as
>one of our main textbooks (our students really liked and learned a lot
>from it!), and we will co-teach this course again in Fall 1999.
>
>Our approach to teaching the war is to provide an in-depth comparative
>analysis of society, political-economy, and culture, in historical
>perspectives for the United States and Vietnam since World War II. We
>think it is important to stress the social-economic foundations of the
>war and the dilemmas in POSTWAR Vietnam. So, we provided the context of
>colonialism, during and after the Vietnam/American war, and compared
>and contrasted the cultures of Vietnam and the United States, and
>explored ways in which these cultures shaped the course of the
>Vietnam/American war and subsequent relations between the two
>countries. Hence, the postwar aspects are important in bringing more
>relevance and connections to students? lives.
>
>We presented these issues in a balanced and holistic way, using sources
>from both countries, including official documents, textbooks, memoirs,
>fiction, poetry,  films, photography and music (a very challenging job
>since we had little time in just one semester!). We were very keen on
>incorporating personal accounts about the war from memoirs,
>first-person narratives/experiences, especially from women?s
>perspectives which are less often heard. We found that our students
>really enjoyed reading literature and can relate better to these
>personal stories/accounts. We also invited Vietnamese scholars/military
>personnel who lived through the war, U.S. military personnel of
>different ethnic backgrounds who fought in Vietnam, so students had the
>opportunity to meet and interact directly with these guest speakers.
>
>As a friendly suggestion, I think perhaps we need to rethink the name
>of such course. ?Vietnam War? is commonly used but does not necessarily
>reflect what the Vietnamese people themselves think about the war: many
>considered it the ?US war.? I suggest we think of ways to renaming it:
>for instance, ?US-VN social history and political economy? (so the
>?war? is embedded in a broader, more balanced, multi-cultural,
>inter-disciplinary perspectives); or ?Vietnam/American war? (as
>suggested by Sean Brawley in his December 3 email). I?d appreciate your
>inputs on this.
>
>Also, while it might be common that students are more interested in the
>American side at the beginning of the course, it does not always remain
>that way as the course progressed. From the very beginning, we asked
>our students to introduce themselves in terms of their relationships to
>the course topics and their expectations from the course. We ourselves
>shared why we are passionate about teaching this course. This kind of
>mutual sharing broke the ice, increased the trust among ourselves,
>raised students? interests in both perspectives, and commenced our
>course really nicely. Reflections from both students and professors at
>the end of our course demonstrated that we learned a lot from each
>other's experiences and that interests on BOTH sides prevailed.
>
>Finally, I?d like to share some sources (among many other sources on
>American perspectives that we used) from the Vietnamese perspectives to
>make sure that voices from many sides in Vietnam are heard. We assigned
>readings on the war issues and postwar dilemmas.
>
>War issues:
>
>Doan Van Toai and David Chanoff, ?Vietnam? A portrait of its People at
>War, 1996; St. Martin?s Press; New York
>
>Hoang Van Chi, From Colonialism to Communism, 1964. Pall Mall Press,
>London & Dunmow
>
>Huynh Sanh Thong, An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems, 1996; Yale
>University  Press
>
>Le Ly Hayslip with Jay Wurts, When Heaven and Earth Changed Places, 1990
>A Plume Book
>
>Martin, Earl S., Reaching the Other Side, New York: Crown Publishers,
>1978
>
>Ngo Vinh Long, ?Vietnam,? Coming to Terms: Indochina, the United
>States, and the War, 1991, Westview Press
>
>Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnam: Lotus in a Sea of Fire, 1967, The Colonial
>Press Inc., Clinton, Massachusetts
>
>Postwar issues:
>
>Melanie Beresford, ?Issues in Economic Unification: overcoming the
>legacy of separation? in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in socialist
>development, Cornell Southeast Asia Program
>
>Le Duc Thuy, ?Economic Doi Moi in Vietnam: Content, Achievements, and
>Prospects? in Turley, William S. and Mark Selden, Reinventing
>Vietnamese Socialism: Doi Moi in Comparative Perspective, 1993;
>Westview Press
>
>Nguyen Huyen Chau, ?Women and Family Planning Policies in Postwar
>Vietnam?, 1988, in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in Socialist Development,
>Cornell Southeast Asia Program
>
>Tran Thi Que, ?Gender Issues in Vietnam?s Development?, 1995, in
>Vietnam In A Changing World, Curzon Press
>
>Angie Ngoc Tran, ?Through the Eye of the Needle: Vietnamese Textile and
>Garment Industries Rejoining the Global Economy,? in Crossroads: An
>Interdisciplinary Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 10(2),
>Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University, 1997
>
>Nguyen Huy Thiep, ?Remembrance of the Countryside,? in Vietnam: A
>Traveler?s Literary Companion, 1996; Whereabouts Press (There is also a
>beautiful film based on this story with English subtitles).
>
>These are just some thoughts. We?d love to learn more from your ideas,
>experiences, pedagogies and sources.
>
>Sincerely,
>Angie Ngoc Tran
>Social and Behavioral Sciences Center
>California State University at Monterey Bay
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:52:13 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Carl Schulkin 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Marilyn

        Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response to my query
regarding WHEN HEAVEN AND EARTH CHANGED PLACES.  I found particularly
valuable your comment that "My uneasiness has to do with precisely how
easily this fits into an analysis of the NLF that sees the broad mass of the
peasantry as essentially apolitical, just wanting peace, coerced by one side
or the other without themselves engaged in politics."  Do historians have
any way to measure how large a portion of the peasantry were _NOT_
"apolitical"?  Do we have any way to measure what portion of the peasantry
sided with the NLF and what portion sided with the South Vietnamese
government?  Even educated guesses on these issues would be very helpful to
high school teachers trying to deal with this important issue.

Carl Schulkin
Pembroke Hill School
Kansas City, MO 64112
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:08:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A recent, and very excellent, anthology you might find useful: MOUNTAIN
RIVER: VIETNAMESE POETRY FROM THE WARS 1948-1993, edited by Kevin Bowen,
Nguyen Ba Chung and Bruce Weigl. By beginning with the war against the
French and ending in a period when Vietnamese are re-interpreting the past,
the book offers a wider range than earlier anthologies. It is graced by a
beautiful introduction written by Nguyen Ba Chung. In addition, it's a
bi-lingual edition, which will give students a sense of the Vietnamese
written language and, should you have students in your class who read
Vietnamese, the opportunity to hear the poetry read in its original
language.  Finally, the Univ. of Massachusetts Press has done a really
lovely job -- it's a handsome paper back and good paper.

At 03:03 PM 12/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Response to Angie Ngoc Tran @ CSU Monterey Bay and listserv members:
>
>I have used the course title, "The Viet-Nam Experience," to describe my
>3-credit, 10-week course which I have been teaching since the early
>1980s (except for a three-year hiatus whereby I had to decompress from
>the "experience")
>
>It IS very important to cover the "war" from all sides.  I provide the
>students an extensive reading list (except for a handful of novels which
>I am not entirely in agreement with my literary colleagues regarding
>their usefulness from a factual perspective).  Topics include: the
>anti-war perspective, combat trauma, historical & political, oral
>histories & memoirs, photographic works, women who served, Vietnamese
>perspective and cinema.
>
>On the Vietnamese perspective it is, of course, important to have
>readings and sources from the North Vietnames, the Viet Cong and the
>South Vietnamese loyalist perspectives. Sources I use include:
>
>"In the Jaws of History" by Bui Diem 1987 Houghton
>"The Sorrow of War" by Bao Ninh 1993 Pantheon
>"Novel Without A Name" by Duong Thu Huong 1995 Wm. Morrow & Co.
>"Vietcong Memoir" by Tuon Nhu Tang 1985 Harcourt Brace
>
>U.S. women's roles include:
>
>"Home Before Morning" by Lynda Van Devanter 1983 (this one really grabs
>both the men and women in class)
>"In the Combat Zone" by Kathryn Marshall 1987
>"A Piece of My Heart" by Keith Walker 1985.
>
>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam Vet)
>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>712.279.5483
>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Angie Tran [mailto:Angie_Tran@MONTEREY.EDU]
>Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 2:11 PM
>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: The Vietnamese side of the war
>
>
>Dear Marilyn and Colleagues:
>
>I feel privileged to participate in this wonderful forum and have
>learned a lot from the exchanges. I totally support the view that we
>need to consciously incorporate the Vietnamese side of the war into
>courses on Vietnam/American war. Gerald Shenk (social history) and I
>(political economy) have tried various ways to approach this goal at
>CSU Monterey Bay.
>
>In Spring 1997, we co-taught a course entitled "COMPARATIVE SOCIAL
>HISTORY AND POLITICAL ECONOMY: THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM SINCE
>1945" from two disciplinary and multi-cultural perspectives (American
>and Vietnamese). We assigned your book, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990, as
>one of our main textbooks (our students really liked and learned a lot
>from it!), and we will co-teach this course again in Fall 1999.
>
>Our approach to teaching the war is to provide an in-depth comparative
>analysis of society, political-economy, and culture, in historical
>perspectives for the United States and Vietnam since World War II. We
>think it is important to stress the social-economic foundations of the
>war and the dilemmas in POSTWAR Vietnam. So, we provided the context of
>colonialism, during and after the Vietnam/American war, and compared
>and contrasted the cultures of Vietnam and the United States, and
>explored ways in which these cultures shaped the course of the
>Vietnam/American war and subsequent relations between the two
>countries. Hence, the postwar aspects are important in bringing more
>relevance and connections to students? lives.
>
>We presented these issues in a balanced and holistic way, using sources
>from both countries, including official documents, textbooks, memoirs,
>fiction, poetry,  films, photography and music (a very challenging job
>since we had little time in just one semester!). We were very keen on
>incorporating personal accounts about the war from memoirs,
>first-person narratives/experiences, especially from women?s
>perspectives which are less often heard. We found that our students
>really enjoyed reading literature and can relate better to these
>personal stories/accounts. We also invited Vietnamese scholars/military
>personnel who lived through the war, U.S. military personnel of
>different ethnic backgrounds who fought in Vietnam, so students had the
>opportunity to meet and interact directly with these guest speakers.
>
>As a friendly suggestion, I think perhaps we need to rethink the name
>of such course. ?Vietnam War? is commonly used but does not necessarily
>reflect what the Vietnamese people themselves think about the war: many
>considered it the ?US war.? I suggest we think of ways to renaming it:
>for instance, ?US-VN social history and political economy? (so the
>?war? is embedded in a broader, more balanced, multi-cultural,
>inter-disciplinary perspectives); or ?Vietnam/American war? (as
>suggested by Sean Brawley in his December 3 email). I?d appreciate your
>inputs on this.
>
>Also, while it might be common that students are more interested in the
>American side at the beginning of the course, it does not always remain
>that way as the course progressed. From the very beginning, we asked
>our students to introduce themselves in terms of their relationships to
>the course topics and their expectations from the course. We ourselves
>shared why we are passionate about teaching this course. This kind of
>mutual sharing broke the ice, increased the trust among ourselves,
>raised students? interests in both perspectives, and commenced our
>course really nicely. Reflections from both students and professors at
>the end of our course demonstrated that we learned a lot from each
>other's experiences and that interests on BOTH sides prevailed.
>
>Finally, I?d like to share some sources (among many other sources on
>American perspectives that we used) from the Vietnamese perspectives to
>make sure that voices from many sides in Vietnam are heard. We assigned
>readings on the war issues and postwar dilemmas.
>
>War issues:
>
>Doan Van Toai and David Chanoff, ?Vietnam? A portrait of its People at
>War, 1996; St. Martin?s Press; New York
>
>Hoang Van Chi, From Colonialism to Communism, 1964. Pall Mall Press,
>London & Dunmow
>
>Huynh Sanh Thong, An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems, 1996; Yale
>University  Press
>
>Le Ly Hayslip with Jay Wurts, When Heaven and Earth Changed Places, 1990
>A Plume Book
>
>Martin, Earl S., Reaching the Other Side, New York: Crown Publishers,
>1978
>
>Ngo Vinh Long, ?Vietnam,? Coming to Terms: Indochina, the United
>States, and the War, 1991, Westview Press
>
>Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnam: Lotus in a Sea of Fire, 1967, The Colonial
>Press Inc., Clinton, Massachusetts
>
>Postwar issues:
>
>Melanie Beresford, ?Issues in Economic Unification: overcoming the
>legacy of separation? in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in socialist
>development, Cornell Southeast Asia Program
>
>Le Duc Thuy, ?Economic Doi Moi in Vietnam: Content, Achievements, and
>Prospects? in Turley, William S. and Mark Selden, Reinventing
>Vietnamese Socialism: Doi Moi in Comparative Perspective, 1993;
>Westview Press
>
>Nguyen Huyen Chau, ?Women and Family Planning Policies in Postwar
>Vietnam?, 1988, in Postwar Vietnam: Dilemmas in Socialist Development,
>Cornell Southeast Asia Program
>
>Tran Thi Que, ?Gender Issues in Vietnam?s Development?, 1995, in
>Vietnam In A Changing World, Curzon Press
>
>Angie Ngoc Tran, ?Through the Eye of the Needle: Vietnamese Textile and
>Garment Industries Rejoining the Global Economy,? in Crossroads: An
>Interdisciplinary Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 10(2),
>Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University, 1997
>
>Nguyen Huy Thiep, ?Remembrance of the Countryside,? in Vietnam: A
>Traveler?s Literary Companion, 1996; Whereabouts Press (There is also a
>beautiful film based on this story with English subtitles).
>
>These are just some thoughts. We?d love to learn more from your ideas,
>experiences, pedagogies and sources.
>
>Sincerely,
>Angie Ngoc Tran
>Social and Behavioral Sciences Center
>California State University at Monterey Bay
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:16:33 EST
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Sibley J. Smith, Jr." 
Subject:      Re: Country Joe McDonald
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-12-03 15:24:36 EST, you write:

> Hey, Carl -
>
>  Sorry to have to ask, but heck, it's all for pedagogical purposes.  What's
>  "Okie from Muskogee?"  I've heard the term but didn't know it was a song.
>  What is the point that makes it valuable for contrasting to "Fixin' to Die
>  Rag"?  Despite the facts the Joe provides, I (a sample of one--not
>  compelling, but interesting) grew up singing the Fixin to Die Rag but, as I
>  said, know nothing about Merle Haggard's song.  I was growing up in
>  Southern California, maybe that makes a difference.
>
>  Eileen
>
>
>  Dr. Eileen Walsh
>  History Department
>  Acting Director, Center for Professional Development
>  Bemidji State University
>  Bemidji MN  USA  56601
>  (218) 755-4355  office   ewalsh@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu
>  http://cal.bemidji.msus.edu/history/Faculty/walsh.html
>
==================================

My take on Haggard's "Okie from Muskogee" was that it became, in effect, an
anthem for counter-counterculturalists, particularly those among the
Country/Western music aficionados. Funny thing about it, according to Merle
Haggard in a recorded interview I once saw, he wrote the song as a lark. He
and his band were in a plane flying over Oklahoma. I reckon it was the pilot
who announced over the intercom that they were then passing over Muskogee,
Oklahoma. Merle and the boys started goofing on the name and the "hick" image
it stirred, and they ended up composing the song then and there, just for fun.
And it became a major hit.
       Frankly, I preferred Merle's "White Line Fever" as covered by The
Flying Burrito Brothers, but that's another story.
       My two cents worth,
       ---Sib Smith

Sibley J. Smith, Jr.
Director of Education
Vietnam Era Educational Center
New Jersey Vietnam Veterans' Memorial Foundation
1 Memorial Lane, P.O. Box 648
Holmdel, NJ 07733
www.njvvmf.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:21:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Robert Shaffer 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19981206175213.006e63dc@gvi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        I don't have any particular insight based on my own research on
the question of how historians can tell the percentage of the "South"
Vietnamese peasantry which were apolitical or partisan, but a passage from
Eric Bergerud's _The Dynamics of Defeat: The Vietnam War in Hau Nghia
Province_, which is excerpted in Thomas Paterson et al, _Major Problems in
American Foreign Relations, 4th edition_, has an interesting formulation
of the issue which impressed my students.  Bergerud writes that during the
war U.S. government studies on the issue "usually missed the point.  When
they constructed a political equation for Vietnam, it always resembled a
hypothetical public opinion poll that asked whether most people in South
Vietnam supported the GVN [South Vietnamese Government] or the [National
Liberation] Front.  The question they should have askedwas which side were
more people willing to die for.  Had they asked the second question, they
would not have like the answer."  (From the Paterson collection, p. 576)

-- Robert Shaffer
History Department
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania

On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:

> Dear Marilyn
>
>         Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response to my query
> regarding WHEN HEAVEN AND EARTH CHANGED PLACES.  I found particularly
> valuable your comment that "My uneasiness has to do with precisely how
> easily this fits into an analysis of the NLF that sees the broad mass of the
> peasantry as essentially apolitical, just wanting peace, coerced by one side
> or the other without themselves engaged in politics."  Do historians have
> any way to measure how large a portion of the peasantry were _NOT_
> "apolitical"?  Do we have any way to measure what portion of the peasantry
> sided with the NLF and what portion sided with the South Vietnamese
> government?  Even educated guesses on these issues would be very helpful to
> high school teachers trying to deal with this important issue.
>
> Carl Schulkin
> Pembroke Hill School
> Kansas City, MO 64112
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:32:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: The Vietnamese side of the war
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Probably the best way to get at it is thru local studies; Bergerud is
excellent, also Jeffrey Race's War Comes to Long An and Trullinger's
Village at War (recently reprinted). The latter is a good lower level
reading for college or high school: short chapters, direct,
straight-forward style, etc. Stuart Herrington's book, Silence Was a Weapon
(? I don't have it here at the office and I may have the title wrong) is
also useful. M.


At 08:21 AM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>        I don't have any particular insight based on my own research on
>the question of how historians can tell the percentage of the "South"
>Vietnamese peasantry which were apolitical or partisan, but a passage from
>Eric Bergerud's _The Dynamics of Defeat: The Vietnam War in Hau Nghia
>Province_, which is excerpted in Thomas Paterson et al, _Major Problems in
>American Foreign Relations, 4th edition_, has an interesting formulation
>of the issue which impressed my students.  Bergerud writes that during the
>war U.S. government studies on the issue "usually missed the point.  When
>they constructed a political equation for Vietnam, it always resembled a
>hypothetical public opinion poll that asked whether most people in South
>Vietnam supported the GVN [South Vietnamese Government] or the [National
>Liberation] Front.  The question they should have askedwas which side were
>more people willing to die for.  Had they asked the second question, they
>would not have like the answer."  (From the Paterson collection, p. 576)
>
>-- Robert Shaffer
>History Department
>Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania
>
>On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Carl Schulkin wrote:
>
>> Dear Marilyn
>>
>>         Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response to my query
>> regarding WHEN HEAVEN AND EARTH CHANGED PLACES.  I found particularly
>> valuable your comment that "My uneasiness has to do with precisely how
>> easily this fits into an analysis of the NLF that sees the broad mass of
the
>> peasantry as essentially apolitical, just wanting peace, coerced by one
side
>> or the other without themselves engaged in politics."  Do historians have
>> any way to measure how large a portion of the peasantry were _NOT_
>> "apolitical"?  Do we have any way to measure what portion of the peasantry
>> sided with the NLF and what portion sided with the South Vietnamese
>> government?  Even educated guesses on these issues would be very helpful to
>> high school teachers trying to deal with this important issue.
>>
>> Carl Schulkin
>> Pembroke Hill School
>> Kansas City, MO 64112
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:55:29 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         D Zelman 
Subject:      Joe McDonald
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I hope I'm not too late to get in on the topic of protest music.  When I
teach my Vietnam history course my selections of music, including Joe
McDonalds "Fixin' to Die Rag" and Ed Starr's "WAR" are class favorites.
Until this semester I contrasted them with the numerous patriotic songs from
World War II, many found on the CD "The Return of Rosie the Riverter."  I
recently came across a CD entitled "That's Why We're Marching."  I will use
it this spring to show that there was also anti-war music during World War
II. Some of the selections are quite similar to the protest songs of the
Vietnam era.  Selections include "Ballad of October 16" by the Almanac
Singers/Pete Seeger, "Billy Boy" by Almanac Singers/Josh White, and "Plow
Under" by Almanac Singers/Pete Singer.   Since some of this music has themes
similar to "I Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die" I wonder if Joe McDonald was
familar with this music when he wrote in the sixties and if they had any
influence on him.



Donald L. Zelman
Professor of History
Director, Division of General Studies
Box T-0340
Tarleton State University
Stephenville, Texas 76402
email: zelman@Tarleton.edu/ fax 254-968-9668
Phone: (254) 968-9423
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:25:35 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Joe McDonald
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

D Zelman wrote:

> I hope I'm not too late to get in on the topic of protest music.  When I
> teach my Vietnam history course my selections of music, including Joe
> McDonalds "Fixin' to Die Rag" and Ed Starr's "WAR" are class favorites.
> Until this semester I contrasted them with the numerous patriotic songs from
> World War II, many found on the CD "The Return of Rosie the Riverter."  I
> recently came across a CD entitled "That's Why We're Marching."  I will use
> it this spring to show that there was also anti-war music during World War
> II. Some of the selections are quite similar to the protest songs of the
> Vietnam era.  Selections include "Ballad of October 16" by the Almanac
> Singers/Pete Seeger, "Billy Boy" by Almanac Singers/Josh White, and "Plow
> Under" by Almanac Singers/Pete Singer.   Since some of this music has themes
> similar to "I Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die" I wonder if Joe McDonald was
> familar with this music when he wrote in the sixties and if they had any
> influence on him.
>
> Donald L. Zelman
> Professor of History
> Director, Division of General Studies
> Box T-0340
> Tarleton State University
> Stephenville, Texas 76402
> email: zelman@Tarleton.edu/ fax 254-968-9668
> Phone: (254) 968-9423

no, i was not influenced by that material.  although there was left wing
material in our home.  something i did not understand about protest music until
recently was my treatment by the left and the lack of material with that rank
and file bad attitude we have in the 60's ,until i listened to the BEAR FAMILY
10 CD set of MUSIC OF THE LEFT.   The company is German.  it documents early
bad attitude WWII songs by the same actors:  like " to hell with the sgt and
the army" and that sort of thing.  It soon changed to "lets go out and get
Hitler togeather we can defeat the nazi's".   in my opinion the left was taking
a "line" from russia or somewhere and it was decided to be "pro" defeat the
nazi's vrs. "anti" military and "pro" rank and file (GI) military.  For this
reason the official "left" continued their "lets support the communists at the
expense of the GI's position" and rejected any bad attitude and bad language
and history left them behind.  cheers, country joe mcdonald


   -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins
.003 milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me
Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:10:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Stephen Homick 
Subject:      Re: Joe McDonald
In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19981208145529.0069243c@vms2.tarleton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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El 8 Dec 98, a las 8:55, D Zelman  scripsit:

> I hope I'm not too late to get in on the topic of protest music.  When I
> teach my Vietnam history course my selections of music, including Joe
> McDonalds "Fixin' to Die Rag" and Ed Starr's "WAR" are class favorites.


I wonder if P.F. Sloan's "Eve of Destruction,"  Tom Paxton's "Lyndon
Johnson Told the Nation" and The Fugs' offensively irreverent "Kill
for Peace" are also part of Prof. Zelman's sampler of '60s anti-war
music?  If they are, would he care to comment on his students'
reaction to them?




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   "     "   "~'  "       //////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:17:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         D Zelman 
Subject:      Re: Joe McDonald
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I do include "Eve Of Destruction."  In a way it's hard to get students to
really understand the tensions folks were living under in the 1960s and how
quickly the change from placid fifties to turbulent 60s came upon us.   "Eve
of Destruction" does help and students do appreciate it.  In fact it is the
first song I play as the start of songs of controversy.  What the students
also find interesting is my recollection (I'm 58 years old) that disc
jockeys often refused to play it, perhaps hoping to maintain the aura of
all's right with the world.  Incidently before I put on "Eve of Destruction"
I play a New Christi(y?) Minstrel Song to show that the singer Barry McGuire
was first part of an up with people type group.  This helps show how quickly
times they were a changing.


At 09:10 PM 12/8/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
>El 8 Dec 98, a las 8:55, D Zelman 
scripsit:
>
>> I hope I'm not too late to get in on the topic of protest music.  When I
>> teach my Vietnam history course my selections of music, including Joe
>> McDonalds "Fixin' to Die Rag" and Ed Starr's "WAR" are class favorites.
>
>
>I wonder if P.F. Sloan's "Eve of Destruction,"  Tom Paxton's "Lyndon
>Johnson Told the Nation" and The Fugs' offensively irreverent "Kill
>for Peace" are also part of Prof. Zelman's sampler of '60s anti-war
>music?  If they are, would he care to comment on his students'
>reaction to them?
>
>
>
>
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>
>Desde orillas del hermoso lago Champlain, saludos virtuales de
>
>*********************************************************************
>#S. Homick                                                          #
>#mailto:shomimid@pop.k12.vt.us                                      #
>#For PGP key, reply to or click on shomick@sover.net?Subject=SendPkey
>#The Truth Shall Make Ye Silly Putty                                #
>*********************************************************************
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>        \   ~\ )          \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////////////
>         \_  //'          -       P O W E R E D   by         -
>  ,;;\___(  (.-~~~-.      -     P E G A S U S   M A I L      -
>,;'' /    ~--   /._`\     -                ***               -
>     ) /--.._, )_  `~     -    http://www.pegasus.usa.com    -
>    /~'`\    `\\~~\       -  http://www.let.rug.nl/pegasus/  -
>   "     "   "~'  "       //////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>


Donald L. Zelman
Professor of History
Director, Division of General Studies
Box T-0340
Tarleton State University
Stephenville, Texas 76402
email: zelman@Tarleton.edu/ fax 254-968-9668
Phone: (254) 968-9423
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:33:51 -0500
Reply-To:     RDowning@UDel.Edu
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Roland G. Downing." 
Subject:      Primary Source Material
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Forum,

Here is a sample of primary source material (citations of Medal of Honor
recipients) that can be used along with other primary sources in the
study of the Vietnam era.

Roland Downing

"It is reported in today's San Antonio Express-News that MSG Roy P.
Benavidez, the last medal of honor winner, and who was decorated by
President Reagan, died Sunday here at Brook Army Medical Center of
respiratory failure.

"MSG Benevides, as you may know, was awarded the Medal of Honor for his
actions in Vietnam while serving in the Special Forces.  His citation
read as follows:

"BENAVIDEZ, ROY P.
Rank and Organization: Master Sergeant, Detachment B-56, 5th Special
Forces Group, Republic of Vietnam. Place and Date: West of Loc Ninh on 2
May 1968.
Entered Service at: Houston, Texas June 1955.
Date and Place of Birth: 5 August 1935, DeWitt County, Cuero,Texas.

"Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. Benavidez United States
Army, who distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely
valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th
Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of
Vietnam.

"On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance
Team was inserted by helicopters in a dense jungle area west of Loc
Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed
large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely
patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on
the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency
extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to
land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire.  Sergeant
Benavidez was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the
operation by radio when these helicopters returned to off-load wounded
crewmembers and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant Benavidez
voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction
attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded
and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a
nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran
approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled
team. Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right
leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge,
repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitat the
landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead
team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to
the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy
fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the
awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside
the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members.  As the
enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified
documents on the dead team leader. When he reached the leader's body,
Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the
abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment,
the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed.
Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds,
Sergeant Benavidez secured the classified documents and made his way
back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned
aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter.
Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved
around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men,
reinstilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy
opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant Benavidez mustered his
strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire
from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit
another extraction attempt. He was wounded again in his thigh by small
arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just
before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable
spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On
his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed receiving additional
wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary. He then
continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter.
Upon reaching the aircraft he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who
were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door
gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made
one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material
had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded.
Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss
of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction
aircraft. Sergeant Benavidez' gallant choice to join voluntarily his
comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to
withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despit numerous
severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless
personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous
actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the
highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost
credit on him and the United States Army.

"He was an inspiration to all who sat and listened to his citation being
read that day.  Well done. Be thou at peace".

V/R Therrel L. "T" Brown Jr. MAJ, QM DISCOM Support Operations Officer
355-8803/8753
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:43:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Geoffrey Hunt 
Subject:      Marilyn Young's Original Message

Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but I
keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:50:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My own experience is that students do still care -- though the nature of
the caring is v. different from what it was 10 years or more ago.  They all
come to the course knowing that 'something bad' happened in VN and wanting
to know what. One interesting shift: 10 years ago when I showed the
documentary 'Hearts and Minds,' student complained that it was too
polemical, too much like 'propaganda.' This year the response was entirely
different: they were immensely moved by it and several asked if it were
generally available so that they could show it to friends and/or family
members.
I can't remember if I mentioned this already, but just in case... in a
freshman seminar this year I assigned Bruce Franklin's MIA/MYTHMAKING IN
AMERICA as the first reading, even though it jumps the chronological gun.
It worked extremely well -- for one thing, it effectively dispelled the
ongoing belief that Hanoi holds pows in some secret camp; it educated
students as to how the government (and the media) create 'facts,'; it is an
excellent example of research methodology using primary but fairly
accessible sources.
No one in the forum has said anything about the VN episode in CNN's cold
war series. I am curious as to what people thought of it...


At 03:43 PM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
>time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
>teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
>(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
>credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
>year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
>ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
>example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
>of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
>from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
>put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
>Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
>"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
>the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
>born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
>To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
>course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
>was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
>Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
>text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
>some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
>right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
>occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
>primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
>"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
>instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
>the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
>photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but I
>keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
>the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
>for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
>Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:24:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Moore 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As a Vietnam veteran who teaches a course about "his war," I take =
exception to=20
your derogatory description of those of your students who experienced =
"their war"
first hand.  Perhaps you would provide the basis of your experience  in =
regard to a
backpack-view of the war.=20
Thanks very much....


John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but I
keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:30:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Moore 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mr. Hunt:=20
Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student =
because=20
he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her =
loved ones fought or=20
for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more =
personal
experience than some academic ................=20
You, sir, should know better.=20

John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but I
keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:18:00 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

John Moore:

My experience in teaching the Viet-Nam Experience class is that there
seems to be an upsurg in interest again, at least in the Midwest.

Perhaps its because the largest group of war-experienced vets is now
Viet-Nam veterans, there has been much national publicity about the war
(e.g. the disinterrment of the "unknown soldier" remains, PTSD issues,
vets returning to Viet-Nam for closure, lower trade barriers,
establishing a U.S. consulate, more movies relating to Viet-Nam and
cable documentaries, ad infinitum).

I think you need to be careful about your concern over the motives of
why students want to take the course,i.e. because a relative was a
"lifer" or whatever.  You should grasp at these students who have a
personal interest and do as much as you can to be objective about the
various roles that individuals played in that divisive conflict.

Perhaps as a Viet-Nam veteran and a historian specializing in that
conflict, I can appreciate and communicate better with all students, be
they Vietnamese, Viet-Nam veteran, a relative, a continuing education
student who remembers the war or a traditional student who simply wants
answers.

When I returned from Viet-Nam, my catharis was to organize a Viet-Nam
Veterans Against the War chapter, to lobby Congress to get out, and to
turn in my ribbons and medals on the steps of Congress in 1972.  But I
also find a brotherhood with all Viet-Nam vets whether they were REMFs
(rear eschelon personnel) or field combat GIs.  I am also guarded in not
pointing a finger at any one source for the debacle.  Everyone had a
hand in the fiasco.  The Viet-Nam War, as I'm sure you know, was a very,
very complex historical happening with many extenuating factors which
led us down the road to the quagmire.  We can only hope that we have
learned something positive from the experience.  The only way, in my
mind, to lessen the chances of "another Viet-Nam" is to continue to
offer courses on the subject so that future generations are not ignorant
of our screw-ups and misdeeds.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu



-----Original Message-----
From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:30 AM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message


Mr. Hunt:
Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student
because
he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her
loved ones fought or
for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more
personal
experience than some academic ................
You, sir, should know better.

John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but
I
keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:03:21 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Ron Large 
Subject:      Re: Joe McDonald

I'm just new to the list, but I also use songs in my course on the Vietnam
war. There are two basic sets of songs that I use, Protest Songs and Songs
by vets. The second set comes on a CD called In Country: Folksongs of
Americans in the Vietnam War. The songs tend to reflect the experiences
of serving in Vietnam and they cover a wide range of topics and emotions.
I do not have time in a semester course to do an entire unit on music, so
I play songs every Thursday (it is a Tues/Thurs class) and alternate
the protest songs with the In Country CD. Most students only know of Bob
Dyan and have no knowledge of Country Joe, Phil Ochs, Buffy St. Marie,
The Committee, Arlo, etc. Only a few have heard their parent's recordings.
For me, the songs provide a context within which to examine the war.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:12:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Geoffrey Hunt 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
Comments: To: "John R. Moore" 

Gosh.  I thought I usually express myself pretty clearly, but after re-
reading my post and your reaction, I think I should get a second
chance.  My concern at students wanting to find out about the war their
grandparents were in is not at their interest - it just makes me feel
old.  It doesn't seem that long ago.  And, I AM interested in why the
students take the class, all students.  I am especially interested in
what the veterans are looking for from the class.  If I know what they
are hoping to get, I have a better chance of focusing the class, or
specific assignments, to meet their goals.  That creates, I believe, a
better course for all concerned.  What can a Vietnam vet learn about
his or her war in a college course, that can add anything to what they
experienced first hand?  Far from taking a derogatory attitude towards
their experience, I honor it and respect it.  And what I frequently
hear is, "well, I was at X, but I don't know what was going on anywhere
else."  (The "backpack" quote, to which I was alerted by a Special
Forces colonel).  And, the care with which I approach the veterans'
experience in VN also reminds me in every other course, that historians
need to be as true to those who are long gone - the people of the
American Revolution, or of ancient Rome, for instance.  I do not think
that such an approach is at all disrespectful. - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:57:48 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Geoff Hunt:

Yes, a significant number of GIs, even though they spent a year or more
in-country, had very little opportunity to see other parts of Viet-Nam,
to learn much about what was going on outside of their post or even
mingle with the Vietnamese populace.

I was fortunate to have a lot of mobility around III & IV Corps and mix
with the population socially as well as on military matters. But the
average trooper was fairly insulated from these opportunities and their
experience amounted to viewing Viet-Nam from inside a perimeter wire or
on patrol in hazardous country.  Their contact may have been with an
angry, disinterested or outright hostile population.

The "experience" GIs had in Viet-Nam varied according to station
assignment, military occupational specialty and time of service.  The
only joint experience vets had was..."we've all been there" but the
individual experience varied wildly.  If you talk to a veteran who
completed, for instance, three tours of duty you will find that they
noticed, in most cases, three distinct experiences.

More later.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam vet)
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu






-----Original Message-----
From: Geoffrey Hunt [mailto:geoff.hunt@CCA.CCCOES.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:13 PM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message


Gosh.  I thought I usually express myself pretty clearly, but after re-
reading my post and your reaction, I think I should get a second
chance.  My concern at students wanting to find out about the war their
grandparents were in is not at their interest - it just makes me feel
old.  It doesn't seem that long ago.  And, I AM interested in why the
students take the class, all students.  I am especially interested in
what the veterans are looking for from the class.  If I know what they
are hoping to get, I have a better chance of focusing the class, or
specific assignments, to meet their goals.  That creates, I believe, a
better course for all concerned.  What can a Vietnam vet learn about
his or her war in a college course, that can add anything to what they
experienced first hand?  Far from taking a derogatory attitude towards
their experience, I honor it and respect it.  And what I frequently
hear is, "well, I was at X, but I don't know what was going on anywhere
else."  (The "backpack" quote, to which I was alerted by a Special
Forces colonel).  And, the care with which I approach the veterans'
experience in VN also reminds me in every other course, that historians
need to be as true to those who are long gone - the people of the
American Revolution, or of ancient Rome, for instance.  I do not think
that such an approach is at all disrespectful. - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:50:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Moore 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mr. Swain,
I think you remarks are more properly directed to the originator of the =
post questioning
motives: Mr. Geoffrey Hunt.
thanks,=20
jrm


John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> "Swain, Ralph"  12/10 1:18 PM >>>
John Moore:

My experience in teaching the Viet-Nam Experience class is that there
seems to be an upsurg in interest again, at least in the Midwest.

Perhaps its because the largest group of war-experienced vets is now
Viet-Nam veterans, there has been much national publicity about the war
(e.g. the disinterrment of the "unknown soldier" remains, PTSD issues,
vets returning to Viet-Nam for closure, lower trade barriers,
establishing a U.S. consulate, more movies relating to Viet-Nam and
cable documentaries, ad infinitum).

I think you need to be careful about your concern over the motives of
why students want to take the course,i.e. because a relative was a
"lifer" or whatever.  You should grasp at these students who have a
personal interest and do as much as you can to be objective about the
various roles that individuals played in that divisive conflict.

Perhaps as a Viet-Nam veteran and a historian specializing in that
conflict, I can appreciate and communicate better with all students, be
they Vietnamese, Viet-Nam veteran, a relative, a continuing education
student who remembers the war or a traditional student who simply wants
answers.

When I returned from Viet-Nam, my catharis was to organize a Viet-Nam
Veterans Against the War chapter, to lobby Congress to get out, and to
turn in my ribbons and medals on the steps of Congress in 1972.  But I
also find a brotherhood with all Viet-Nam vets whether they were REMFs
(rear eschelon personnel) or field combat GIs.  I am also guarded in not
pointing a finger at any one source for the debacle.  Everyone had a
hand in the fiasco.  The Viet-Nam War, as I'm sure you know, was a very,
very complex historical happening with many extenuating factors which
led us down the road to the quagmire.  We can only hope that we have
learned something positive from the experience.  The only way, in my
mind, to lessen the chances of "another Viet-Nam" is to continue to
offer courses on the subject so that future generations are not ignorant
of our screw-ups and misdeeds.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu=20



-----Original Message-----
From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:30 AM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU=20
Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message


Mr. Hunt:
Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student
because
he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her
loved ones fought or
for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more
personal
experience than some academic ................
You, sir, should know better.

John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us=20
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but
I
keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:24:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I didn't think you were saying anything different in your first post than
you say below, though it is a mark of how volatile the war remains that you
were misread. But I do not find it surprising that veterans want to learn
about the war in a course. Among other things, the war varied year by year
and place by place. More significantly, I think, direct experience, though
a vital part of knowing about something isn't the only way of knowing nor
even the most complete. James Gibson, in THE PERFECT WAR, has a very
important appendix about the sort of knowledge veterans offer; a good thing
to assign to students in terms of learning about different kinds of
sources. The veterans I have met have felt a need to learn about the war
from other sources, other perspectives.  Many felt they did not understand
the war at the time they served.  Others felt they did not really
understand even their own experience until much later, though they could
report on it -- a somewhat different matter. Gerry Linderman's fine new
book on the combat experience of Americans in World War II is a great
contribution to the literature on WWII, but one could not rely on that book
alone if you wanted to teach the history of WWII.

>Gosh.  I thought I usually express myself pretty clearly, but after re-
>reading my post and your reaction, I think I should get a second
>chance.  My concern at students wanting to find out about the war their
>grandparents were in is not at their interest - it just makes me feel
>old.  It doesn't seem that long ago.  And, I AM interested in why the
>students take the class, all students.  I am especially interested in
>what the veterans are looking for from the class.  If I know what they
>are hoping to get, I have a better chance of focusing the class, or
>specific assignments, to meet their goals.  That creates, I believe, a
>better course for all concerned.  What can a Vietnam vet learn about
>his or her war in a college course, that can add anything to what they
>experienced first hand?  Far from taking a derogatory attitude towards
>their experience, I honor it and respect it.  And what I frequently
>hear is, "well, I was at X, but I don't know what was going on anywhere
>else."  (The "backpack" quote, to which I was alerted by a Special
>Forces colonel).  And, the care with which I approach the veterans'
>experience in VN also reminds me in every other course, that historians
>need to be as true to those who are long gone - the people of the
>American Revolution, or of ancient Rome, for instance.  I do not think
>that such an approach is at all disrespectful. - Geoff Hunt
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:08:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Kathy G 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

How can I get archives from this list?

Kathy


At 09:50 AM 12/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Mr. Swain,
>I think you remarks are more properly directed to the originator of the
post questioning
>motives: Mr. Geoffrey Hunt.
>thanks,
>jrm
>
>
>John R. Moore
>Tidewater Community College
>Norfolk, VA 23510
>e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
>tel: 757-822-1308
>
>>>> "Swain, Ralph"  12/10 1:18 PM >>>
>John Moore:
>
>My experience in teaching the Viet-Nam Experience class is that there
>seems to be an upsurg in interest again, at least in the Midwest.
>
>Perhaps its because the largest group of war-experienced vets is now
>Viet-Nam veterans, there has been much national publicity about the war
>(e.g. the disinterrment of the "unknown soldier" remains, PTSD issues,
>vets returning to Viet-Nam for closure, lower trade barriers,
>establishing a U.S. consulate, more movies relating to Viet-Nam and
>cable documentaries, ad infinitum).
>
>I think you need to be careful about your concern over the motives of
>why students want to take the course,i.e. because a relative was a
>"lifer" or whatever.  You should grasp at these students who have a
>personal interest and do as much as you can to be objective about the
>various roles that individuals played in that divisive conflict.
>
>Perhaps as a Viet-Nam veteran and a historian specializing in that
>conflict, I can appreciate and communicate better with all students, be
>they Vietnamese, Viet-Nam veteran, a relative, a continuing education
>student who remembers the war or a traditional student who simply wants
>answers.
>
>When I returned from Viet-Nam, my catharis was to organize a Viet-Nam
>Veterans Against the War chapter, to lobby Congress to get out, and to
>turn in my ribbons and medals on the steps of Congress in 1972.  But I
>also find a brotherhood with all Viet-Nam vets whether they were REMFs
>(rear eschelon personnel) or field combat GIs.  I am also guarded in not
>pointing a finger at any one source for the debacle.  Everyone had a
>hand in the fiasco.  The Viet-Nam War, as I'm sure you know, was a very,
>very complex historical happening with many extenuating factors which
>led us down the road to the quagmire.  We can only hope that we have
>learned something positive from the experience.  The only way, in my
>mind, to lessen the chances of "another Viet-Nam" is to continue to
>offer courses on the subject so that future generations are not ignorant
>of our screw-ups and misdeeds.
>
>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>712.279.5483
>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
>Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:30 AM
>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
>
>
>Mr. Hunt:
>Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
>of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student
>because
>he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her
>loved ones fought or
>for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more
>personal
>experience than some academic ................
>You, sir, should know better.
>
>John R. Moore
>Tidewater Community College
>Norfolk, VA 23510
>e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
>tel: 757-822-1308
>
>>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
>Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
>time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
>teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
>(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
>credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
>year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
>ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
>example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
>of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
>from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
>put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
>Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
>"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
>the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
>born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
>To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
>course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
>was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
>Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
>text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
>some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
>right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
>occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
>primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
>"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
>instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
>the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
>photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but
>I
>keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
>the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
>for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
>Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:08:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Ellen Noonan 
Subject:      Forum archives
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19981211150800.007a9830@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

To respond to Kathy Goldstein's questions about the archives for this
forum, they are located at
http://ashp.listserv.cuny.edu/archives/vietnamwarforum.html

I want to take this opportunity to commend everyone for the thoughtful,
resource-rich archive you are producing through this online conversation--
Bravo!

Ellen Noonan
ASHP
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:58:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19981211150800.007a9830@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry, I'm not sure, but I've passed the inquiry on... M.

At 03:08 PM 12/11/98 -0800, you wrote:
>How can I get archives from this list?
>
>Kathy
>
>
>At 09:50 AM 12/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Mr. Swain,
>>I think you remarks are more properly directed to the originator of the
>post questioning
>>motives: Mr. Geoffrey Hunt.
>>thanks,
>>jrm
>>
>>
>>John R. Moore
>>Tidewater Community College
>>Norfolk, VA 23510
>>e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
>>tel: 757-822-1308
>>
>>>>> "Swain, Ralph"  12/10 1:18 PM >>>
>>John Moore:
>>
>>My experience in teaching the Viet-Nam Experience class is that there
>>seems to be an upsurg in interest again, at least in the Midwest.
>>
>>Perhaps its because the largest group of war-experienced vets is now
>>Viet-Nam veterans, there has been much national publicity about the war
>>(e.g. the disinterrment of the "unknown soldier" remains, PTSD issues,
>>vets returning to Viet-Nam for closure, lower trade barriers,
>>establishing a U.S. consulate, more movies relating to Viet-Nam and
>>cable documentaries, ad infinitum).
>>
>>I think you need to be careful about your concern over the motives of
>>why students want to take the course,i.e. because a relative was a
>>"lifer" or whatever.  You should grasp at these students who have a
>>personal interest and do as much as you can to be objective about the
>>various roles that individuals played in that divisive conflict.
>>
>>Perhaps as a Viet-Nam veteran and a historian specializing in that
>>conflict, I can appreciate and communicate better with all students, be
>>they Vietnamese, Viet-Nam veteran, a relative, a continuing education
>>student who remembers the war or a traditional student who simply wants
>>answers.
>>
>>When I returned from Viet-Nam, my catharis was to organize a Viet-Nam
>>Veterans Against the War chapter, to lobby Congress to get out, and to
>>turn in my ribbons and medals on the steps of Congress in 1972.  But I
>>also find a brotherhood with all Viet-Nam vets whether they were REMFs
>>(rear eschelon personnel) or field combat GIs.  I am also guarded in not
>>pointing a finger at any one source for the debacle.  Everyone had a
>>hand in the fiasco.  The Viet-Nam War, as I'm sure you know, was a very,
>>very complex historical happening with many extenuating factors which
>>led us down the road to the quagmire.  We can only hope that we have
>>learned something positive from the experience.  The only way, in my
>>mind, to lessen the chances of "another Viet-Nam" is to continue to
>>offer courses on the subject so that future generations are not ignorant
>>of our screw-ups and misdeeds.
>>
>>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
>>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>>712.279.5483
>>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
>>Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:30 AM
>>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>>Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
>>
>>
>>Mr. Hunt:
>>Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
>>of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student
>>because
>>he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her
>>loved ones fought or
>>for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more
>>personal
>>experience than some academic ................
>>You, sir, should know better.
>>
>>John R. Moore
>>Tidewater Community College
>>Norfolk, VA 23510
>>e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
>>tel: 757-822-1308
>>
>>>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
>>Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
>>time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
>>teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
>>(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
>>credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
>>year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
>>ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
>>example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
>>of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
>>from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
>>put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
>>Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
>>"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
>>the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
>>born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
>>To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
>>course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
>>was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
>>Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
>>text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
>>some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
>>right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
>>occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
>>primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
>>"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
>>instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
>>the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
>>photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but
>>I
>>keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
>>the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
>>for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
>>Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:19:14 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

J.M.

The original message posted by Geoffrey Hunt was sent to all on the
listserv.  I simply responded by reply mail.  Doesn't seem to make sense
to let half the conversation be read by the listserv and not the
replies, don't you agree?  Clue me in if I've used improper netiquete
and why.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof.
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu




-----Original Message-----
From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 8:51 AM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message


Mr. Swain,
I think you remarks are more properly directed to the originator of the
post questioning
motives: Mr. Geoffrey Hunt.
thanks,
jrm


John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> "Swain, Ralph"  12/10 1:18 PM >>>
John Moore:

My experience in teaching the Viet-Nam Experience class is that there
seems to be an upsurg in interest again, at least in the Midwest.

Perhaps its because the largest group of war-experienced vets is now
Viet-Nam veterans, there has been much national publicity about the war
(e.g. the disinterrment of the "unknown soldier" remains, PTSD issues,
vets returning to Viet-Nam for closure, lower trade barriers,
establishing a U.S. consulate, more movies relating to Viet-Nam and
cable documentaries, ad infinitum).

I think you need to be careful about your concern over the motives of
why students want to take the course,i.e. because a relative was a
"lifer" or whatever.  You should grasp at these students who have a
personal interest and do as much as you can to be objective about the
various roles that individuals played in that divisive conflict.

Perhaps as a Viet-Nam veteran and a historian specializing in that
conflict, I can appreciate and communicate better with all students, be
they Vietnamese, Viet-Nam veteran, a relative, a continuing education
student who remembers the war or a traditional student who simply wants
answers.

When I returned from Viet-Nam, my catharis was to organize a Viet-Nam
Veterans Against the War chapter, to lobby Congress to get out, and to
turn in my ribbons and medals on the steps of Congress in 1972.  But I
also find a brotherhood with all Viet-Nam vets whether they were REMFs
(rear eschelon personnel) or field combat GIs.  I am also guarded in not
pointing a finger at any one source for the debacle.  Everyone had a
hand in the fiasco.  The Viet-Nam War, as I'm sure you know, was a very,
very complex historical happening with many extenuating factors which
led us down the road to the quagmire.  We can only hope that we have
learned something positive from the experience.  The only way, in my
mind, to lessen the chances of "another Viet-Nam" is to continue to
offer courses on the subject so that future generations are not ignorant
of our screw-ups and misdeeds.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu



-----Original Message-----
From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:30 AM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message


Mr. Hunt:
Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student
because
he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her
loved ones fought or
for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more
personal
experience than some academic ................
You, sir, should know better.

John R. Moore
Tidewater Community College
Norfolk, VA 23510
e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
tel: 757-822-1308

>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but
I
keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:57:42 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      teaching the vietnam war
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

i have been at this vietnam war thing for a long time and at first i was sure
what we were talking about but now i dont know.  civilians need to understand
military law in order to understand the vietnam war.  if you have lived under
military law you understand. if you have not you must try to understand.
students must understand the connection between military law and military
history and their future.  this is more important than the politics or morals
of the war.  and i am sorry to say i dont know how to teach this . the
military has a unique oppertunity in boot camp to do a common denominator type
teaching that gets to everyone.  this approach is not possible in an american
civilian class room where people are free to leave.  cheers, country joe
mcdonald


 -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins .003
milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:03:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've been doing the same -- and was also unaware that there were problems
with this procedure. I suppose if people wish to communicate directly with
someone they would post their message to that person's direct email address
rather than use the listserv which is automatically distributed to all.


At 06:19 PM 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>J.M.
>
>The original message posted by Geoffrey Hunt was sent to all on the
>listserv.  I simply responded by reply mail.  Doesn't seem to make sense
>to let half the conversation be read by the listserv and not the
>replies, don't you agree?  Clue me in if I've used improper netiquete
>and why.
>
>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof.
>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>712.279.5483
>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
>Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 8:51 AM
>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
>
>
>Mr. Swain,
>I think you remarks are more properly directed to the originator of the
>post questioning
>motives: Mr. Geoffrey Hunt.
>thanks,
>jrm
>
>
>John R. Moore
>Tidewater Community College
>Norfolk, VA 23510
>e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
>tel: 757-822-1308
>
>>>> "Swain, Ralph"  12/10 1:18 PM >>>
>John Moore:
>
>My experience in teaching the Viet-Nam Experience class is that there
>seems to be an upsurg in interest again, at least in the Midwest.
>
>Perhaps its because the largest group of war-experienced vets is now
>Viet-Nam veterans, there has been much national publicity about the war
>(e.g. the disinterrment of the "unknown soldier" remains, PTSD issues,
>vets returning to Viet-Nam for closure, lower trade barriers,
>establishing a U.S. consulate, more movies relating to Viet-Nam and
>cable documentaries, ad infinitum).
>
>I think you need to be careful about your concern over the motives of
>why students want to take the course,i.e. because a relative was a
>"lifer" or whatever.  You should grasp at these students who have a
>personal interest and do as much as you can to be objective about the
>various roles that individuals played in that divisive conflict.
>
>Perhaps as a Viet-Nam veteran and a historian specializing in that
>conflict, I can appreciate and communicate better with all students, be
>they Vietnamese, Viet-Nam veteran, a relative, a continuing education
>student who remembers the war or a traditional student who simply wants
>answers.
>
>When I returned from Viet-Nam, my catharis was to organize a Viet-Nam
>Veterans Against the War chapter, to lobby Congress to get out, and to
>turn in my ribbons and medals on the steps of Congress in 1972.  But I
>also find a brotherhood with all Viet-Nam vets whether they were REMFs
>(rear eschelon personnel) or field combat GIs.  I am also guarded in not
>pointing a finger at any one source for the debacle.  Everyone had a
>hand in the fiasco.  The Viet-Nam War, as I'm sure you know, was a very,
>very complex historical happening with many extenuating factors which
>led us down the road to the quagmire.  We can only hope that we have
>learned something positive from the experience.  The only way, in my
>mind, to lessen the chances of "another Viet-Nam" is to continue to
>offer courses on the subject so that future generations are not ignorant
>of our screw-ups and misdeeds.
>
>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>712.279.5483
>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Moore [mailto:tcmoorj@TC.CC.VA.US]
>Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:30 AM
>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Marilyn Young's Original Message
>
>
>Mr. Hunt:
>Once again, I must comment.  How dare you comment on the motivation
>of your students.  How condescending of you to look down upon a student
>because
>he or she wanted to learn more about a war in which one of his or her
>loved ones fought or
>for that matter about a war in which they probably had a much more
>personal
>experience than some academic ................
>You, sir, should know better.
>
>John R. Moore
>Tidewater Community College
>Norfolk, VA 23510
>e-mail: tcmoorj@tc.cc.va.us
>tel: 757-822-1308
>
>>>> Geoffrey Hunt  12/09 3:43 PM >>>
>Hello - Sorry to join in late, but hey, it's term paper and final exam
>time.  I teach about the Vietnam conflict in a variety of ways.  I
>teach US and Western Civ surveys at the Community College of Aurora
>(Colorado)where I am the History Department Chair.  I also teach a 3-
>credit course on the Vietnam War at Columbia College-Aurora (a four-
>year school).  Obviously, Vietnam fits into each type of course dif-
>ferently.  In Western Civ II, I use post-World War II Vietnam as an
>example of how "Cold War" events can also be viewed through the lens
>of de-colonization.  In the US Survey II, I discuss the war itself
>from US,French, and Vietnamese (north and south) perspectives, but also
>put considerable emphasis on the American homefront.  In the Vietnam
>Course, on the other hand, often I am teaching Vietnam veterans about
>"their" war.  (Napoleon observed, "All my grenadiers saw of Russia was
>the backpack of the man in front of them.")  I've had students who were
>born in Vietnam, and whose first memory of Americans was "in-coming."
>To my distress, twice I have had students say they wanted to take the
>course because "my grandfather was in the war" (in each case, grandad
>was a "lifer" who'd also seen World War II, but still . . .)  For the
>Vietnam Course, I use Herring's "America's Longest War" as the prime
>text, + Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down", + a My Lai reader.  At first
>some of the students question my choice of Steinbeck, but the vets are
>right there almost immediately, on the dynamics between occupied and
>occupier, between young men and women, and so on.  The My Lai reader of
>primary sources gives the students some material for a simulated
>"trial," and an introduction to some of the complexities of war.  For
>instruction, I use lecture, selected parts of the PBS "Vietnam" series,
>the trial, a guest speaker (Howard Ruffner, one of the two Kent State
>photographers) and some student presentations. It all seems to work, but
>I
>keep looking to improve the course.  And I find myself wondering - as
>the Vietnam conflict becomes more distant in time, will the audience
>for a Vietnam-specific course dry up?  Is it already too remote for
>Survey students to care? - Geoff Hunt
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:10:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "David W. Del Testa" 
Subject:      Broader Viewpoints

I have received so many good suggestions from this forum!  But I wanted to mention my own tack, which differs slightly from the other approaches mentioned so far.  I would also appreciate criticism if there is any...
When I teach about the involvement of the United States in the Vietnam conflict, I always try very hard to contextualize that conflict within a larger series of historical conflicts in Indochina.  I stress that the conflict shared some of the elements of longer-term historical conflicts between Vietnam and its neighbors (especially Laos and Thailand), was part of an internal struggle in which the United States was but one (important) actor (Buddhists vs. Catholics, peasants vs. the bourgeoisie, highlanders vs. lowlanders, etc.), and that the Vietnamese (and to a lesser degree the Cambodians) had just finished throwing off the yoke of French colonialism.  In my course, "The Indochina Conflicts, 1940-1981" I begin with an extensive discussion of French colonialism, and use Lockhart's "Light of the Capital" as a basis for understanding the problems of colonialism, as well as excerpts of Tran's "The Red Earth".  In my lectures, I use the historical framework set up by Christopher Goscha in his contraversial "Vietnam or Indochina?" as a base, and start my third lecture with a discussion of the Franco-Thai Conflict of 1941.  I use material from Marr's Vietnam 1945; in fact, I barely mention the United States until about the end of the third week in a ten week quarter, and the United States disappears, in essence, by week 8, after the evacuation of 1975.  I try to keep the conflict firmly rooted in Indochina and the social and political movements of that place, rather than a conflict which wholly and solely involved the United States as teh essential participant. The students are often dazed by this approach, expecting perhaps ten weeks of the United States; but they seem to react favorably at the end of the course when the received view that many of them bring from high school is recentered back to Indochina, and the people in whose name the conflict was waged.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:35:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Broader Viewpoints
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think this is a terrific approach -- though it is one not all of us are
either competent nor able (in terms of curricular needs) to undertake.
I've just learned about the book, THE ROAD TO WAR by Martin Shipway. Do you
know it? What do you think of it? One question: looking at the conflict(s)
in the way you do, what sense do students make of US intervention? Do they
feel how intensely *foreign* an event it was (to the Indochines actors?),
how close (from the perspective of those same Indochinese actors) to the
French colonialism it may have appeared? I have been struck, over and over
again, in the US documents on the war, by the sense Americans have that
they are, somehow, at home everywhere. They do not think of themselves as
'foreigners.' That category, ironically, is often reserved for, for
example, Vietnamese from the north, or Vietnamese allied with the NLF. I
want my students to understand both how it came to be that Americans should
thus have a sense of themselves as everywhere 'at home' AND how odd that
was to the people actually living there... M.



At 06:10 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I have received so many good suggestions from this forum!  But I wanted to
mention my own tack, which differs slightly from the other approaches
mentioned so far.  I would also appreciate criticism if there is any...
>When I teach about the involvement of the United States in the Vietnam
conflict, I always try very hard to contextualize that conflict within a
larger series of historical conflicts in Indochina.  I stress that the
conflict shared some of the elements of longer-term historical conflicts
between Vietnam and its neighbors (especially Laos and Thailand), was part
of an internal struggle in which the United States was but one (important)
actor (Buddhists vs. Catholics, peasants vs. the bourgeoisie, highlanders
vs. lowlanders, etc.), and that the Vietnamese (and to a lesser degree the
Cambodians) had just finished throwing off the yoke of French colonialism.
In my course, "The Indochina Conflicts, 1940-1981" I begin with an
extensive discussion of French colonialism, and use Lockhart's "Light of
the Capital" as a basis for understanding the problems of colonialism, as
well as excerpts of Tran's "The Red Earth".  In my lectures, I use the
historical framework set up by Christopher Goscha in his contraversial
"Vietnam or Indochina?" as a base, and start my third lecture with a
discussion of the Franco-Thai Conflict of 1941.  I use material from Marr's
Vietnam 1945; in fact, I barely mention the United States until about the
end of the third week in a ten week quarter, and the United States
disappears, in essence, by week 8, after the evacuation of 1975.  I try to
keep the conflict firmly rooted in Indochina and the social and political
movements of that place, rather than a conflict which wholly and solely
involved the United States as teh essential participant. The students are
often dazed by this approach, expecting perhaps ten weeks of the United
States; but they seem to react favorably at the end of the course when the
received view that many of them bring from high school is recentered back
to Indochina, and the people in whose name the conflict was waged.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:37:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Broader Viewpoints
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

postscript: do you know of a memoir entitled THE RUBBER TREE and if so,
what do you think of it? and secondly, I think Goscha's work is wonderful
and wish it were more widely known and available... M.



At 06:10 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I have received so many good suggestions from this forum!  But I wanted to
mention my own tack, which differs slightly from the other approaches
mentioned so far.  I would also appreciate criticism if there is any...
>When I teach about the involvement of the United States in the Vietnam
conflict, I always try very hard to contextualize that conflict within a
larger series of historical conflicts in Indochina.  I stress that the
conflict shared some of the elements of longer-term historical conflicts
between Vietnam and its neighbors (especially Laos and Thailand), was part
of an internal struggle in which the United States was but one (important)
actor (Buddhists vs. Catholics, peasants vs. the bourgeoisie, highlanders
vs. lowlanders, etc.), and that the Vietnamese (and to a lesser degree the
Cambodians) had just finished throwing off the yoke of French colonialism.
In my course, "The Indochina Conflicts, 1940-1981" I begin with an
extensive discussion of French colonialism, and use Lockhart's "Light of
the Capital" as a basis for understanding the problems of colonialism, as
well as excerpts of Tran's "The Red Earth".  In my lectures, I use the
historical framework set up by Christopher Goscha in his contraversial
"Vietnam or Indochina?" as a base, and start my third lecture with a
discussion of the Franco-Thai Conflict of 1941.  I use material from Marr's
Vietnam 1945; in fact, I barely mention the United States until about the
end of the third week in a ten week quarter, and the United States
disappears, in essence, by week 8, after the evacuation of 1975.  I try to
keep the conflict firmly rooted in Indochina and the social and political
movements of that place, rather than a conflict which wholly and solely
involved the United States as teh essential participant. The students are
often dazed by this approach, expecting perhaps ten weeks of the United
States; but they seem to react favorably at the end of the course when the
received view that many of them bring from high school is recentered back
to Indochina, and the people in whose name the conflict was waged.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:55:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "David W. Del Testa" 
Subject:      Re: Broader Viewpoints

Thank you for the kind feedback.  I have looked at The Rubber Tree, and want to incorporate it more fully into the materials I use; I may even assign it sometime.  I want more of the type of materials we're all talking about, in translation, from the French colonial period to the present, in full form, not just extracts.  I would like to see North and South Vietnamese autobiographical pieces, the diaries of French colonists, the words of easrly Americans, etc. and so on.  It is a very exciting time now for teaching this type of course.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:52:06 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Fitzgerald 
Subject:      Re: Broader Viewpoints
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As a Vietnam veteran, and an opponent of the war, I wonder if the
massive all-out assault on Vietnam that our war produced comes through
in your course. The role of the USA in Vietnam was a massive and violent
invasion. The firepower that we unleashed against that country was
massive. Do not let the revisionist line that we fought with our hands
behind our backs cloud your vision of the realities. We supported and
supplied the French from at least 1945 with Harry Truman to Dien Bien
Phu in 1954 with Dulles and Ike. We built up Diem and created the
Republic of Vietnam at the same time that Disney was building
Disneyland. The border quarrels of Vietnam with Laos were not conducted
with B-52's. Perhaps you are already aware of this.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:40:27 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: Broader Viewpoints
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

RE: John Fitzgerald's remarks

I, too, am a Viet-Nam vet and became actively anti-war (VVAW) upon my
return.  I also have been teaching the history of U.S. involvement in
Viet-Nam since 1984.  My course begins 2,000 years ago with an overview
of the history of Annam, Tonkin and Cochin China.  I cover the Chinese
domination, the French Colonialism, the Japanese occupation, the sellout
of the Vietnamese by Gen. Gracey to the returning French and the
American involvement.

Even in a three-credit course, with all the supportive materials and
videos, it should run at least two terms or a full year, but it doesn't,
so I do my best.  I cover the "culture" of the American soldier which I
can relate first-hand to the class, I bring in Viet vets (American and
Vietnamese).  I cover the war from the side of the ARVN, the Viet Cong
and the NVA.  I have a special lecture on weapons and tactics from both
sides (includes booby traps, punjis and mines).

Then I get into the "other war"...i.e. the huge black market system, the
corruption, the intrigue among higher-ranking American soldiers and the
Vietnamese police establishment.  Since I was personally involved for a
time with criminal investigations in Saigon, I discuss the offshoots of
the war such as drugs, prostitution and other crimes.

When the students are given the statistics regarding tonnage of bombs,
ordnance expended, helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft lost, chemical
defoliants used, dollars spent, etc. (and I do comparisons with WWII),
they are flabergasted.  This really puts in perspective the "hands are
tied" statement.  In reality, at the ground level, in individual
incidents there were many times a "my hands are tied" situation
occurred(can't bomb that factory, can't pursue that enemy unit, and so
on), but on the large scale, we really had a sledgehammer to use and
used it frequently, mostly to no avail.

As with most events in our history, we have to temper what we teach with
as much objectivity as we can muster, but not smooth over the rough
edges...and there were many, many rough edges in the Viet-Nam War.

Welcome home, brother.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof. (Viet-Nam veteran)
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu

President, Viet-Nam Veterans Multimedia Project
712.277.8550



-----Original Message-----
From: John Fitzgerald [mailto:fitzgera@JAVANET.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 5:52 PM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Broader Viewpoints


As a Vietnam veteran, and an opponent of the war, I wonder if the
massive all-out assault on Vietnam that our war produced comes through
in your course. The role of the USA in Vietnam was a massive and violent
invasion. The firepower that we unleashed against that country was
massive. Do not let the revisionist line that we fought with our hands
behind our backs cloud your vision of the realities. We supported and
supplied the French from at least 1945 with Harry Truman to Dien Bien
Phu in 1954 with Dulles and Ike. We built up Diem and created the
Republic of Vietnam at the same time that Disney was building
Disneyland. The border quarrels of Vietnam with Laos were not conducted
with B-52's. Perhaps you are already aware of this.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:30:25 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Fitzgerald 
Subject:      Re: Broader Viewpoints
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Re: Ralph Swain's Remarks

        I think any course taught on the subject of Vietnam for Americans has
to get into the moral dimension. Discussing Vietnam in an American
classroom without an in depth analysis of the American role is a lot
like discussing World War II without mentioning the German NAZI Party
except in a footnote. Is it unfair to compare Hitler to JFK? Can one
compare the US Air Force to the German Luftwaffe? Is a discussion of
Vietnam similar to a discussion of the history of Ireland? Is there some
kind of military science at work here? Are we going to look at the  wars
of native Americans before we get to the wars of the Europeans against
the native Americans? Is war inevitable and a permanent part of the
human condition?
        History is a humanity and not a science. It is not some kind of
objective discussion of inanimate objects. The Realpolitik ideas of
people like Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon and their kinsman in Chile,
General Pinochet, spring from such amoral principles.
        I wonder how helpful it is to discuss Vietnam's border struggles with
its immediate neighbors and then make the quantum leap to French
imperialism and then the further leap to the American invasion. Is
ancient Vietnam's political skirmishing with its neighbors for some kind
of political autonomy and self-definition on a par with a European power
sailing in with artillery and automatic weapons to take over and
subjugate a land?
        When that European power is defeated at Dien Bien Phu, the USA decides
to shoulder the Whiteman's Burden and show those French and the
Vietnamese how Uncle Sam won the West. (The technology and firepower
that we deployed in Vietnam was far beyond what we had ever done to any
area earlier. It even exceeded the Korean Conflict bombardment.)
        Justification? All the old formulas were pronounced.
        If not us, then who? If not here, then where? Our manifest destiny and
our mission into the wilderness to build a city on a hill brought us to
Vietnam, just as it had earlier brought us to the Philippines, Guam,
Hawaii, California, the Alamo, Salem and Plymouth Rock. God wanted us to
stand and fight in Vietnam! Good old God! He knows that He can count on
us and we can always count on him to lend a blessing if not a hand!
Where would we be today, if we were not doing the work of the Lord?
        I think we should avoid the denial of moral responsibility that creeps
into discussions of Vietnam. We should not look at a thousand years of
Asian history, when what we really need to know can be covered in about
one hundred years. Before Americans become experts in the history of
Vietnam and Laos and China, they might want to study a little bit of
their own. And when they study history, they really should leave God out
of it. He (or is it She?) had nothing to do with it! We made the messes
all by ourselves.
        Hope this is helpful!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:04 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Fitzgerald 
Subject:      Re: My earlier message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Some further thoughts:

I see the Republic of Vietnam as an American creation. Diem was our
puppet until the CIA and JFK thought we could do better.
We had no right to violate the Geneva Agreements that ended the war in
1954.
Invasion is the only phrase I can use for one nation moving into another
and occupying half of it. Our stooge government invited us in.
John F. Kennedy was once my hero. He had a similarity to Hitler in that
he was dreaming of world control. He was trying to kill Castro and
risked nuclear war in 1962. His activities in Africa show a ruthless
Cold Warrior with few qualms about killing political opponents. Throw in
RFK and you have a
Leopold and Loeb combination. Two rich kids who thought killing people
was ok because James Bond did it.
Kennedy was not the same as Hitler, but some comparisons bring out
interesting features.
I try to get my students to think by provoking them with comparisons and
contrasts they might not normally make. There seems to be a developing
mindset on Vietnam that disturbs me. It seeks to make the US out to be
the victim. We were the aggressor. The Vietnamese were in their
homeland.
Peace,
John J. Fitzgerald
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:09:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Barbara M. Kelly" 
Organization: Hofstra University
Subject:      Re: My earlier message
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Given the events of yesterday, a local public radio station played some oldies
last night, which were on point, but weakly identified.  Does anyone out there
remember two performers named Bill -- one Oaks and one [possibly] Hill; one a
singer and the other a comedian.  The comedian may have been attacking the
first Persian Gulf attack since he used the figures 150,000 [theirs] and 79
[ours] casualties and the went on to ask 'what if we only sent 80 in the first
place, would that mean a ticker tape parade for one guy?'
I don't recall the lyrics to the song [this was one of those
in-the-middle-of-the-nighters], but they were similar to Country Joes albeit
the melody line was a bit softer.

I would particularly like to use them next semester, so I would be grateful if
anyone can point me to the sources.

Barbara Kelly
LIBSPBMK@HOFSTRA.EDU
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:24:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joshua Brown 
Subject:      Re: My earlier message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Barbara: I can't identify the comedian, but the singer was surely the late
Phil Ochs.  His "I Ain't Marchin' Anymore" may have been the song you heard
-- sung at many a rally and demonstration.

Best,

Josh Brown

At 12:09 PM 12/17/98, Barbara M. Kelly wrote:
>Given the events of yesterday, a local public radio station played some oldies
>last night, which were on point, but weakly identified.  Does anyone out there
>remember two performers named Bill -- one Oaks and one [possibly] Hill; one a
>singer and the other a comedian.  The comedian may have been attacking the
>first Persian Gulf attack since he used the figures 150,000 [theirs] and 79
>[ours] casualties and the went on to ask 'what if we only sent 80 in the first
>place, would that mean a ticker tape parade for one guy?'
>I don't recall the lyrics to the song [this was one of those
>in-the-middle-of-the-nighters], but they were similar to Country Joes albeit
>the melody line was a bit softer.
>
>I would particularly like to use them next semester, so I would be grateful if
>anyone can point me to the sources.
>
>Barbara Kelly
>LIBSPBMK@HOFSTRA.EDU

Joshua Brown
Acting Center Director/Creative Director
American Social History Project/Center for Media and Learning
Graduate School and University Center, CUNY
99 Hudson Street, 3rd Fl., New York, NY 10013
212-966-4248 x214   jbrown5@email.gc.cuny.edu
http://www.ashp.cuny.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:27:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Robert Shaffer 
Subject:      Re: Singers and Wars
In-Reply-To:  <01J5FZCCUEWY8ZECOT@Mail.Hofstra.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        The first performer you mentioned, I imagine, was _Phil_ (not
Bill) Ochs, whose antiwar songs were very influential in the 1960s and
early 1970s.  His albums (at least greatest hits) should be readily
available in larger music stores.  His songs that come most readily to
mind are "I Aint A-Marching Anymore," which reevaluates the history of
U.S. warfare from the vantage point of the 1960s, and "White Boots
Marching in a Yellow Land."

-- Robert Shaffer
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Barbara M. Kelly wrote:

> Given the events of yesterday, a local public radio station played some oldies
> last night, which were on point, but weakly identified.  Does anyone out there
> remember two performers named Bill -- one Oaks and one [possibly] Hill; one a
> singer and the other a comedian.  The comedian may have been attacking the
> first Persian Gulf attack since he used the figures 150,000 [theirs] and 79
> [ours] casualties and the went on to ask 'what if we only sent 80 in the first
> place, would that mean a ticker tape parade for one guy?'
> I don't recall the lyrics to the song [this was one of those
> in-the-middle-of-the-nighters], but they were similar to Country Joes albeit
> the melody line was a bit softer.
>
> I would particularly like to use them next semester, so I would be grateful if
> anyone can point me to the sources.
>
> Barbara Kelly
> LIBSPBMK@HOFSTRA.EDU
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:42:31 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: My earlier message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Sounds awfully like Phil Ochs to me but I'm not sure if he is still
living.  Phil was a great folk singer with anti-war lyric and was
personally involved in numerous anti-Vietnam war events during the 60s
and 70s.
If you find out, let me know.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof.
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu




-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara M. Kelly [mailto:LIBSPBMK@HOFSTRA.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:09 AM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: My earlier message


Given the events of yesterday, a local public radio station played some
oldies
last night, which were on point, but weakly identified.  Does anyone out
there
remember two performers named Bill -- one Oaks and one [possibly] Hill;
one a
singer and the other a comedian.  The comedian may have been attacking
the
first Persian Gulf attack since he used the figures 150,000 [theirs] and
79
[ours] casualties and the went on to ask 'what if we only sent 80 in the
first
place, would that mean a ticker tape parade for one guy?'
I don't recall the lyrics to the song [this was one of those
in-the-middle-of-the-nighters], but they were similar to Country Joes
albeit
the melody line was a bit softer.

I would particularly like to use them next semester, so I would be
grateful if
anyone can point me to the sources.

Barbara Kelly
LIBSPBMK@HOFSTRA.EDU
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:27:43 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Carl Schulkin 
Subject:      Re: Phil Ochs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Colleagues,

        If I remember correctly, Phil Ochs committed suicide in the late
'60s or early '70s.  For those not familiar with him or his music, there are
some brief but very good segments in historical context in part 2 and part 4
of the documentary series MAKING SENSE OF THE SIXTIES.  There is at least
one clip in which he sings a stanza from I AIN'T AMARCHIN' ANYMORE.

Carl Schulkin
Pembroke Hill School
Kansas City, MO 64112
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:12:04 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Stephen Homick 
Subject:      Re: Phil Ochs
In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19981217232743.006f3540@gvi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 17 Dec 98, a las 17:27, Carl Schulkin  scripsit:

> If I remember correctly, Phil Ochs committed suicide in the late
> '60s or early '70s.  For those not familiar with him or his music, there
> are some brief but very good segments in historical context in part 2 and
> part 4 of the documentary series MAKING SENSE OF THE SIXTIES.  There is at
> least one clip in which he sings a stanza from I AIN'T AMARCHIN' ANYMORE.
>

Phil Ochs took his own life in 1976.  Of his robust repertoire, I
think the little ditty which appears below best captures the attitude
of a generation that, quite frankly, had a very different agenda from
the one concocted in oaken seminar rooms along the Cantabridgian
banks of the Charles River or in the depths of Foggy Bottom, by the
Bros. Dulles and the Bros. Bundy, inter alia:

Draft Dodger Rag

By Phil Ochs


I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town.
I believe in God and Senator Dodd and keeping old Castro down.
And when it came my time to serve I knew better dead than red.
But when I got to my old draft board, buddy, this is what I said:

Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse.
I got eyes like a bat, my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting
worse.
O think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid
aunt.
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a goin' to school, and I'm working in a
defense plant...

I hate Chou En Lai, and I hope he dies,
But one thing you gotta see.
That someone's gotta go over there
And that someone isn't me.

So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell.
Yeah, Kill me a thousand or so.
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore,
Well I'll be the first to go.



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Desde orillas del hermoso lago Champlain, saludos virtuales de

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:41:32 -0500
Reply-To:     RDowning@UDel.Edu
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Roland G. Downing." 
Subject:      Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Forum,

How much emphasis should be placed on the role of communism when
teaching about Vietnam?

Roland Downing
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:25:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Weitzel, Ronald" 
Subject:      Re: Communism
Comments: To: RDowning@UDel.Edu

     I would say that it depends upon where you are going to place your
teaching emphasis.
     Was what happened in Vietnam an expression of the expansionist
tendencies of international communism whose goal was to conquer the world
and whose every local expression of a war of national liberation was just a
cover for the planners in Moscow and Peking?  Or was the Vietnamese war a
true war of national liberation from colonialism, one whose leaders were
schooled in Marxism, socialism, and western democracy (Ho Chi Minh)?
     The role of communism is, I think, very important because of the
importance placed on it by US policy makers.  To all of our decision makers
Vietnamese communism was the leading edge--allow the communists there to win
and democracy would no longer be safe anywhere in the world.
    In truth, I don't know whether our policy makers really believed this or
not, but they certainly spoke and acted as if they did.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:29:41 -0500
Reply-To:     RDowning@UDel.Edu
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Roland G. Downing." 
Subject:      Re: Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Forum,

Thank you to all who responded both on and off forum. Everyone felt that
the role communism is crucial in the teaching of the subject. I feel the
same way (and it certainly felt that way while I was living through it).

I have been reveiwing recently published high school United States
history books and have been paying particular attention to the subject
of communism (cold war) in general and the Vietnam era in particular.

But first, I have a general complaint that the text in these books is so
abbreviated and condensed as to be completely boring. Space is allocated
to figures, pictures, maps, theme statements, summaries, questions and
exercises, special activities and special sections (which must be thrown
in by the publishers or editors for market or political purposes but
which is not historiograghy). Most of these learning aids seem to have a
valid purpose, but in total they rob the text of it's purpose.  I think
good interesting writing is essential and I think it has been
sacrificed.  Granted, these survey courses at this level cannot get into
much detail, but we risk loosing the interest of good students with
texts of this type.  This puts yet another burden on the teacher.

I have found treatment of the Vietnam era to be factual and balanced,
but not so with the cold war against communism.  The beginnings of the
cold war gets treated too much as the 2nd "red scare" rather than as a
natural reactions to real threats.  Lots of detail is presented in
describing how rights of citizens were violated by the H.U.A.C. and
McCarthy, yet little is presented as to why Americans were acting that
way. It would be so simple to teach that Americans had just been through
a TOTAL WAR in which each citizen was either a friend or an enemy -
that's the way total wars are fought. And the usual peacetime luxury of
serious political descent always gets compromised to some extent in
situations such as those.  (This is not a defense of McCarthy's deceit.)
In particular, descriptions of the spy trials seem to suggest that
Russian spying was not such a threat after all. This brings me to my
question.  Hasn't recent scholarship in Russia proved that the
Rosenbergs were indeed spys?

Roland Downing
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:13:10 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Eileen Walsh 
Subject:      New archival material on Vietnam War
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19981211132410.00cdf660@is2.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This just came across the wires:

New Additions to NAIL Database -- NARA
http://www.nara.gov/nara/recdata.html
The fifteenth batch of digitized documents and photos was added to the
National Archive and Record Administration's (NARA) Archival Information
Locator (NAIL) on December 7. These new additions include 194 photos
related to the Vietnam War, 52 multi-page documents concerning the fall of
South Vietnam, a number of selected files from desegregation and
discrimination cases, Joint Chiefs of Staff Central Files 1962-1963, and
maps Relating to the Civil War, among other items. A brief description,
sample image, and searching instructions are provided for each of the
collections.


Dr. Eileen Walsh
History Department
Acting Director, Center for Professional Development
Bemidji State University
Bemidji MN  USA  56601
(218) 755-4355  office   ewalsh@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu
http://cal.bemidji.msus.edu/history/Faculty/walsh.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:30:29 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Re: Communism
Comments: To: "RDowning@UDel.Edu" 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

RE: Roland Downing on teaching communism

I have done an informal investigation of high school history textbooks
covering the Viet-Nam War period.  By and large I have been appalled at
the death of information (in some texts only 8 or 10 paragraphs)
regarding one of the most divisive events in 20th Century U.S. history
and as traumatic as the Great Depression, World Wars I and II and Korea.

Sometimes it seems as though textbook publishers/authors are worried
about protecting our youth from embarassing historical facts...or maybe
those who make textbook decisions at the secondary schools are at fault,
I'm not sure.

Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof.
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu




-----Original Message-----
From: Roland G. Downing. [mailto:Rdowning@UDEL.EDU]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 4:30 PM
To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Communism


Dear Forum,

Thank you to all who responded both on and off forum. Everyone felt that
the role communism is crucial in the teaching of the subject. I feel the
same way (and it certainly felt that way while I was living through it).

I have been reveiwing recently published high school United States
history books and have been paying particular attention to the subject
of communism (cold war) in general and the Vietnam era in particular.

But first, I have a general complaint that the text in these books is so
abbreviated and condensed as to be completely boring. Space is allocated
to figures, pictures, maps, theme statements, summaries, questions and
exercises, special activities and special sections (which must be thrown
in by the publishers or editors for market or political purposes but
which is not historiograghy). Most of these learning aids seem to have a
valid purpose, but in total they rob the text of it's purpose.  I think
good interesting writing is essential and I think it has been
sacrificed.  Granted, these survey courses at this level cannot get into
much detail, but we risk loosing the interest of good students with
texts of this type.  This puts yet another burden on the teacher.

I have found treatment of the Vietnam era to be factual and balanced,
but not so with the cold war against communism.  The beginnings of the
cold war gets treated too much as the 2nd "red scare" rather than as a
natural reactions to real threats.  Lots of detail is presented in
describing how rights of citizens were violated by the H.U.A.C. and
McCarthy, yet little is presented as to why Americans were acting that
way. It would be so simple to teach that Americans had just been through
a TOTAL WAR in which each citizen was either a friend or an enemy -
that's the way total wars are fought. And the usual peacetime luxury of
serious political descent always gets compromised to some extent in
situations such as those.  (This is not a defense of McCarthy's deceit.)
In particular, descriptions of the spy trials seem to suggest that
Russian spying was not such a threat after all. This brings me to my
question.  Hasn't recent scholarship in Russia proved that the
Rosenbergs were indeed spys?

Roland Downing
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:50:05 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Rich Houston 
Subject:      Re: Communism
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greetings,   Some of the problem on the HS level is the control of the text
market that driven by large states like Texas that make book decisions on a
statewide basis.  This offer puts pressure on publishers to make the books
as conventional and non-controvertial as possible.  I think it especially
makes sure that "negative" views of the US are muted.  Another difficultly
is that many HS students don't have the reading level or
literary/historical perspective  to deal with writing that would engage the
top students.  The advanced classes in many schools like mine(Harwich HS,
MA)use college texts.  What I find the most disconcerting is the fact that
most young people will only be exposed to vietman in their HS US history
survey.

PS  I'm enjoying the forum very much.        Sincerely,  Rich Houston

At 11:30 AM 12/19/98 -0600, you wrote:
>RE: Roland Downing on teaching communism
>
>I have done an informal investigation of high school history textbooks
>covering the Viet-Nam War period.  By and large I have been appalled at
>the death of information (in some texts only 8 or 10 paragraphs)
>regarding one of the most divisive events in 20th Century U.S. history
>and as traumatic as the Great Depression, World Wars I and II and Korea.
>
>Sometimes it seems as though textbook publishers/authors are worried
>about protecting our youth from embarassing historical facts...or maybe
>those who make textbook decisions at the secondary schools are at fault,
>I'm not sure.
>
>Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof.
>Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
>Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
>Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
>712.279.5483
>swain@briar-cliff.edu
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roland G. Downing. [mailto:Rdowning@UDEL.EDU]
>Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 4:30 PM
>To: VIETNAMWARFORUM@ASHP.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Communism
>
>
>Dear Forum,
>
>Thank you to all who responded both on and off forum. Everyone felt that
>the role communism is crucial in the teaching of the subject. I feel the
>same way (and it certainly felt that way while I was living through it).
>
>I have been reveiwing recently published high school United States
>history books and have been paying particular attention to the subject
>of communism (cold war) in general and the Vietnam era in particular.
>
>But first, I have a general complaint that the text in these books is so
>abbreviated and condensed as to be completely boring. Space is allocated
>to figures, pictures, maps, theme statements, summaries, questions and
>exercises, special activities and special sections (which must be thrown
>in by the publishers or editors for market or political purposes but
>which is not historiograghy). Most of these learning aids seem to have a
>valid purpose, but in total they rob the text of it's purpose.  I think
>good interesting writing is essential and I think it has been
>sacrificed.  Granted, these survey courses at this level cannot get into
>much detail, but we risk loosing the interest of good students with
>texts of this type.  This puts yet another burden on the teacher.
>
>I have found treatment of the Vietnam era to be factual and balanced,
>but not so with the cold war against communism.  The beginnings of the
>cold war gets treated too much as the 2nd "red scare" rather than as a
>natural reactions to real threats.  Lots of detail is presented in
>describing how rights of citizens were violated by the H.U.A.C. and
>McCarthy, yet little is presented as to why Americans were acting that
>way. It would be so simple to teach that Americans had just been through
>a TOTAL WAR in which each citizen was either a friend or an enemy -
>that's the way total wars are fought. And the usual peacetime luxury of
>serious political descent always gets compromised to some extent in
>situations such as those.  (This is not a defense of McCarthy's deceit.)
>In particular, descriptions of the spy trials seem to suggest that
>Russian spying was not such a threat after all. This brings me to my
>question.  Hasn't recent scholarship in Russia proved that the
>Rosenbergs were indeed spys?
>
>Roland Downing
>.
>
>
>

.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:39:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Weitzel, Ronald" 
Subject:      Re: Communism
Comments: To: RDowning@UDel.Edu

        I think Roland Downing puts his finger on an important issue when he
says that survey textbooks are inadequate both in coverage and in literary
quality, and that this puts "yet another burden on the teacher."
        However, I think this is less a burden than it is an opportunity for
the teacher  to put forth a point of view that is both historically
defensible and gives his students useful and meaningful insights into
specific historical issues such as communism, the cold war, and Vietnam.
        For me the problem with textbooks is not so much that they are
bland, although they are, but that through the presentation of "just the
facts ma'am" they often avoid even commenting on issues that raise moral
difficulties (slavery and the Constitution for example) not to mention
issues that are genuinely controversial.
        Finally, with respect to Mr. Downing's   comments on political
dissent, in wartime or in times of national emergency that "luxury" often
does get compromised.  But that does not always mean that the compromises
the government is prepared to permit can be genuinely justified.  While the
record of this country has been very good in recent times regarding
political dissent, it has not been flawless.  So once again it is up to the
teacher.  Do you teach that WW II and the Cold War was total war requiring a
total response?  Or do you emphasize that even in trying times of national
emergency the government has an obligation to ensure the continuation  of
guaranteed civil rights and liberties?  Or, in  a more pointed but often
expressed way, do you teach what is "good" about America or do you teach
what is "bad"?
To me the two are inseparable, although that is not always so in the eyes of
some groups of Americans.

PS---In history as in life there are seldom absolutes.  Were the Rosenberg's
really spies?  I guess I would ask does it really make any difference?  I
think the real story, and the one most useful to students, is why did the
Rosenberg's act the way they did, what prompted the total response of the
government, and why did the public so divide over the issue?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:57:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Communism
In-Reply-To:  <81B4B892446ECF1191F100805FCC66D17C7F64@clerk.house.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

How do your students understand communism? I have been surprised, recently,
to discover the deep and unreflective anticommunism of many of the freshmen
and sophomores I teach. This makes it very difficult for them to understand
the nature of the Vietnamese revolution or indeed of other social
revolutionary movements in the postWWII period. The collapse of the USSR
compounds the difficulty, of course.


At 10:39 AM 12/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>        I think Roland Downing puts his finger on an important issue when he
>says that survey textbooks are inadequate both in coverage and in literary
>quality, and that this puts "yet another burden on the teacher."
>        However, I think this is less a burden than it is an opportunity for
>the teacher  to put forth a point of view that is both historically
>defensible and gives his students useful and meaningful insights into
>specific historical issues such as communism, the cold war, and Vietnam.
>        For me the problem with textbooks is not so much that they are
>bland, although they are, but that through the presentation of "just the
>facts ma'am" they often avoid even commenting on issues that raise moral
>difficulties (slavery and the Constitution for example) not to mention
>issues that are genuinely controversial.
>        Finally, with respect to Mr. Downing's   comments on political
>dissent, in wartime or in times of national emergency that "luxury" often
>does get compromised.  But that does not always mean that the compromises
>the government is prepared to permit can be genuinely justified.  While the
>record of this country has been very good in recent times regarding
>political dissent, it has not been flawless.  So once again it is up to the
>teacher.  Do you teach that WW II and the Cold War was total war requiring a
>total response?  Or do you emphasize that even in trying times of national
>emergency the government has an obligation to ensure the continuation  of
>guaranteed civil rights and liberties?  Or, in  a more pointed but often
>expressed way, do you teach what is "good" about America or do you teach
>what is "bad"?
>To me the two are inseparable, although that is not always so in the eyes of
>some groups of Americans.
>
>PS---In history as in life there are seldom absolutes.  Were the Rosenberg's
>really spies?  I guess I would ask does it really make any difference?  I
>think the real story, and the one most useful to students, is why did the
>Rosenberg's act the way they did, what prompted the total response of the
>government, and why did the public so divide over the issue?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:53:26 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Fitzgerald 
Subject:      Re: Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Forum,
On the general topic of communism-
Our students know very little about communism. They know even less about
the Vietnam War.
Some who claim to have knowledge seem to have a right wing version spun
from the brain of Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan and J. Edgar Hoover are
the two principal sources of misguided information on the former Soviet
Union.
Check out your school library and its holdings under the topic of
communism. The American Legion made sure Hoover was placed in most of
the libraries of Massachusetts.
From the mouths of babes come the twisted and deranged thoughts of their
parents.
I have my students read the Communist Manifesto as a primary source so
that they can get some idea of what Marx and Engels originally had in
mind.
Regards,
John J. Fitzgerald
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:43:35 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      Re: Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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speaking as a red diaper baby on the subject of communism i would just like
to say that it is perhaps easier to explain there are different economic
systems.   i have never been able to figure the various differences between
the various schools of communism.   i am sure that scholars can but novices
cant help but respond to the buzz word "communism".   instead perhaps it
should be explained that the north wanted a very pure form of socialism
while the south hisorically, even today, enjoyed a form of "free
enterpirze".  in general americans are very ignorant about economic systems
and respond in traditional xenophobic ways to the word "communist".  cheers,
country joe mcdonald

    -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins
.003 milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." Me
Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:12:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Sandi Jordet 
Subject:      Re: Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have to agree with Mr. Fitzgerald.  Many of our students are rabid
anti-communists without even knowing any of the background of communism.  We
are fortunate on our staff to not only have history teachers who teach about
communism and what it's belief structure is, but also to have teachers who
teach communism in the context of literature studies.  They believe very
strongly that unless you understand the context of the time frame a story is
written in, it makes no difference what the story is about.  The most common
story taught is "The Crucible" by Miller.  The entire English department
teaches it in the context of McCarthyism and the fear of communists.  Since
this is taught in the fall of the junior year and Vietnam is taught in the
spring of the junior year, the students come away with a better understanding
of the whole mess that was Vietnam.  We have to expose our students to all of
the viewpoints that made up that era, not only from the American point of
view, but from the Chinese point of view, the Russian point of view and the
Vietnamese point of view.  Without that exposure, how else can some of the
early anti-war protests be taught and understood?  How else can the actions
of people like Jane Fonda be understood?    How else can the fervor of the
Viet Kong be explained?



>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:47:20 -0800
Reply-To:     joe@countryjoe.com
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Joe McDonald 
Organization: Acme Music
Subject:      holidaze
Comments: To: prydwyn prydwyn ,
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          ,
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i hope you all have a peaceful and happy winter holiday.  peace and love
to all.  country joe mcdonald


-- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup.  The ozone layer thins
.003 milliliters more.  The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind."
Me Ching.
country joe Home  Pg 
country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale

Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial 
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:44:09 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Fitzgerald 
Subject:      Re: Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Some more thoughts on communism and teaching in American public schools
and colleges.
Thank you Sandi Jordet for your contribution.
I think that a requirement of any world history course should be the
reading of the Communist Manifesto. A critical discussion should be
developed around its claims to factual description of social reality and
its predictions (prohecies?) for the future. Marx and Engels were very
much concerned about the direction capitalist society was taking. They
may have missed the mark in predicting what was going to happen in the
future. Haven't all of the great minds been a little bit short of the
mark in their predictions?
I recommend the Upton Sinclair novel The Jungle for US History courses.
1984 by Orwell should be included.
No student should graduate from high school without having read John
Hersey's Hiroshima.
Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle is a brilliant commentary on American
attitudes towards military weapons and third world countries and how we
have treated them in our recent past.
The period of the 1920's offers an excellent opportunity to look at the
anti-radical spirit that crushed progressive activity and set the model
for McCarthy, Buckley and Nixon in the late 1940's and early 50's.
The best book on the Vietnam War is Marilyn Young's The Vietnam Wars.
Happy holidays to all.
John J. Fitzgerald
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:39:21 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Rand Jimerson 
Subject:      Vietnam in Films

I am preparing a new course, "Film as History: the Vietnam War," which will explore the ways in which the war has been portrayed both by Hollywood and in documentary films. There are many films to choose from, of course, and I will also assign readings to provide background information as well as an historical basis against which to evaluate the films.

In my US survey courses I have used some readings and documentary films about Vietnam, but now I need advice on films and readings that work well for an upper level undergraduate course. I would appreciate suggestions on three categories of assignments:

      1. feature films about Vietnam, especially those that show different historical interpretations or different vantage points;
      2. a general survey or overview of the war;
      3. documentray source collections or personal memoirs.

Thanks for any suggestions, particularly any comments on which films or readings work well in an upper division course.

Rand Jimerson
Western Washington University
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:02:18 +0000
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Fitzgerald 
Subject:      Re: Vietnam in Films
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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To Rand Jimerson:

On films:

I suggest LBJ and the Defense Department in a troop training film
called,
"Why Vietnam".
Try the video catalogues for a copy.
1 - 800 - 4 - movies
Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, Hamburger Hill, Casualties of War, Friendly
Fire.
Very Good Documentary - Hearts and Minds
John Wayne Bullshit - The Green Berets
Vietnam in the Year of the Pig
WGBH Series on Vietnam War
CBS has an interesting collection.
Check out some network tv video collections on the 1960's.
Use some of the world war 2 propaganda films to understand the mind set.
German and American stuff.

Good luck!

John J. Fitzgerald
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:45:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Vietnam in Films
In-Reply-To:  
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sounds like a wonderful course. On the feature film level there are the
usual suspects, each of which has a slightly different take on the war:
Apocalypse Now, Deerhunter, Platoon. But you might want to look at some
less well known feature films: Welcome Home Soldier Boy, The Visitors,
Tracks, Twilight's Last Gleaming.  The first three are early -- before the
war ended, I believe. Visitors, directed by Elia Kazan, was made in 1972.
All three are versions of the enraged, even psychotic, veteran, but they
are different versions of that narrative and the differences are
instructive, I think -- though one would have to make sure students
understood how much of a Hollywood construction the pyscho vet was. On
this, a good read would be Jerry Lembcke's new book, SPITTING IMAGE.
Twilight's Last Gleaming is an odd one -- a standard heist movie in some
ways, but the only Vietnam movie I know of which attempts a POLITICAL
explanation of the war. For this reason alone it is worth using. Burt
Lancaster stars.
If you can, I'd strongly recommend including some Vietnamese films. The
Joiner Center, at U Mass Boston has some and can also probably tell you how
to get others. The one I've used is called 'Abandoned Fields' which was
made in the 1980s and is intended to honor the NLF (Viet Cong) struggle in
the Delta. Lots of interesting issues arise: relationship between NOrth
Vietnamese troops and local NLF, role of the political cadre, importance of
the women and the notion of equality between women and men, hint of
compassion towards US soldiers at the very end.  It is a bit confusing for
students since the Americans are played by Vietnamese wearing ill-fitting
US uniforms, speaking in harsh tones of voice, and with a lot of v. black
hair on their faces... sort of a reverse of Fu Manchu.
If you can locate it, one of the most powerful documentaries was done by
Joris Ivens, one of the great documentary film makers of all time. It's
called simply, The 17th Parallel, and what it depicts is US bombing -- from
the perspective of the bombed. There's a more recent Vietnamese documentary
that shows the tunnel complexes built near the DMZ and interviews people
who lived and fought from them. I saw it in Boston at the Joiner Center and
I'm sure they could tell you its provenance (Kevin Bowen is the director of
the Center). Hope this is helpful. Marilyn Young



At 01:39 PM 12/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I am preparing a new course, "Film as History: the Vietnam War," which
will explore the ways in which the war has been portrayed both by Hollywood
and in documentary films. There are many films to choose from, of course,
and I will also assign readings to provide background information as well
as an historical basis against which to evaluate the films.
>
>In my US survey courses I have used some readings and documentary films
about Vietnam, but now I need advice on films and readings that work well
for an upper level undergraduate course. I would appreciate suggestions on
three categories of assignments:
>
>      1. feature films about Vietnam, especially those that show different
historical interpretations or different vantage points;
>      2. a general survey or overview of the war;
>      3. documentray source collections or personal memoirs.
>
>Thanks for any suggestions, particularly any comments on which films or
readings work well in an upper division course.
>
>Rand Jimerson
>Western Washington University
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:49:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: bye...
In-Reply-To:  
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It is almost the end of the year and of my month with the Vietnam war forum
and History Matters.  I want to thank all of you who have written. I found
our exchanges enormously helpful and I hope some of you did as well -- I've
gotten new ideas for readings, assignments, approaches to the subject. As
well, perhaps more, I have a strong sense of a large community of dedicated
teachers whose acquaintance -- however virtual -- I am delighted to have
made. Best for the New Year... Marilyn B. Young
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:46:14 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         John Andrew 
Subject:      Re: Vietnam in Films
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19981230114516.00892a80@is2.nyu.edu>
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As for films in Vietnam, I'd add two that I have found useful in an
undergrad. seminar on the War - they are "Go Tell the Spartans" - about US
involvement before we sent combat troops in numbers - and "84 Charlie
Mopic" -
John Andrew

John Andrew                               email: J_ANDREW@ACAD.FANDM.EDU
Department of History                     fax 717-399-4518
Franklin and Marshall College
Lancaster, PA. 17604-3003

"Fantasy Will Set You Free" - Steppenwolf
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:32:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Marilyn B. Young" 
Subject:      Re: Vietnam in Films
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, I agree. Go Tell the Spartans is the only film, beside the Green
Berets, about the 'advisor war.' I've seen 84 Charlie Mopic and remember it
for its stunning visuals, but can't remember much more about it.  M.

At 10:46 AM 12/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>As for films in Vietnam, I'd add two that I have found useful in an
>undergrad. seminar on the War - they are "Go Tell the Spartans" - about US
>involvement before we sent combat troops in numbers - and "84 Charlie
>Mopic" -
>John Andrew
>
>John Andrew                               email: J_ANDREW@ACAD.FANDM.EDU
>Department of History                     fax 717-399-4518
>Franklin and Marshall College
>Lancaster, PA. 17604-3003
>
>"Fantasy Will Set You Free" - Steppenwolf
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:23:57 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         Richard Verrone 
Subject:      VN films
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I second John Andrew's viewpoint on the two excellent movies _84 Charlie
Mopick_ and _Go Tell the Spartans_ as films to use in teaching the war.
Several veterans who have seen the movies also give high endorsement to
the films. What do other vets out there think as to the representation
of the war experience as seen through these two films?
Sincerely,
Richard Verrone
Department of History
Texas Tech University
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:25:05 -0600
Reply-To:     Vietnam War Era Forum 
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Swain, Ralph" 
Subject:      Viet-Nam Films
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I find that many students, after taking my Viet-Nam course, become very
interested in further pursuing the subject on their own.  Therefore, I
make available to those who are interested my Viet-Nam Resource List, a
five-page indexing of books, films and Internet sites.

This list contains "Swain's picks of feature films" gleaned from my list
of 182 films that touch the subject of Viet-Nam.  For those of you who
are interested I am attaching both lists (in MSWord97 format) to this
e-mail.  Your additions and comments would be welcome.

As a Viet-Nam veteran, the feature film that is the closest to my own
experiences in-country is a little known film (shot by a Japanese film
company with American actors) called, "Don't Cry, It's Only Thunder."
When I saw this film, I was shocked at how closely it mimicked my own
experience...even down to the Province of Gia Dinh and the Sai-Gon area.
Surprisingly, I found a copy in a local video rental store, so you might
start there first if you're interested.  Bascially, as does "Good
Morning, Vietnam," the film shows there were many sides to the war
beside outright combat and firefights.  My experience involved sapper
attacks, terrorism, and rocket attacks as opposed to firefights in the
field. The important thing to remember about combat in Viet-Nam is that
no place was secure, there were no battle lines, no territory
permanently secured and the ratio of support troops to combat troops
with "line units" ranged anywhere from 5 to 1 and up!  It took a
tremendous amount of logistical support (I was stationed with the USARV
logistical command headquarters company) to keep a line trooper fully
supplied in the field.

I have enjoyed this month-long e-mail forum and hope you all have
rewarding experiences teaching the Viet-Nam war.  Keep in touch.



Ralph A. Swain, assoc. prof.
Program Coordinator/Dept. of Mass Communications
Briar Cliff College, 3303 Rebecca St., P.O. Box 2100
Sioux City, IA 51104-2100
712.279.5483
swain@briar-cliff.edu




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Vietnam Resource List
\par }\pard \qc\widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20 Dept. of Mass =
Communications
\par Briar Cliff College
\par Ralph A. Swain, Asso. Prof.
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Anti-war perspective:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Days of Decision: An Oral History of Conscientious =
Objectors in the Military during the Vietnam War}{\f0\fs20 ,  Gerald R. =
Gioglio. Broken Rifle Press: Trenton, NJ, 1989.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul I Refuse: Memories of a Vietnam War =
Objector}{\f0\fs20 , Donald L. Simons. Broken Rifle Press: Trenton, =
N.J., 1992.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Long Time Passing}{\f0\fs20 , Myra MacPherson. =
Doubleday: New York, 1984.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage}{\f0\fs20 , =
Gitlin.\tab (A look at the 1960s free speech and anti-war movement)
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Combat trauma:
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul=20
\par Achilles In Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of =
Character}{\f0\fs20 , Jonathan Shay. Atheneum, 1994.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Farewell, Darkness: A Veteran's Triumph Over Combat =
Trauma}{\f0\fs20 , Ron Zaczek. Naval Institute Press: Annapolis, MD, =
1994.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Kerry: Agent Orange and an American Family}{\f0\fs20 =
, St. Martins Press, Cliff Linedecker, Michael Ryan & Mureen Ryan, =
1982.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Lives After Vietnam: The Personal Impact of Military =
Service}{\f0\fs20 .
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Stress Disorders Among Vietnam Veterans}{\f0\fs20 , =
Charles R. Figley, Ph.D., Brunner/Mazel Inc., New York, 1978.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Vietnam: The Battle Comes Home}{\f0\fs20 , Nancy =
Howell-Koehler, ed. Morgan and Morgan: Dobbs Ferry, NY, 1984.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Wounded Generation: America after =
Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Sam Brown, Phillip Caputo, James Fallows, Susan =
Jacoby, Tim O'Brein, Lucian K. Truscott, James Webb, A Washington Press =
Book, Prentice Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1981.
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Historical and Political:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in =
Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Neil Sheehan. Random House, 1988.\tab (The =
political history of the debacle of the Vietnam War from the early =
beginning of U.S. involvement with military advisors)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Backfire: Vietnam-The Myths That Made U.S. =
Fight}{\f0\fs20 , etc., Loren Baritz. Ballentine, 1985.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Coast Guard at War: Vietnam, 1965-1975}{\f0\fs20 =
, Alex Larzelere. Naval Institute Press: Annapolis, MD, 1997. (A =
detailed account of the deployment of the U.S. Coast Guard in Vietnam =
for river, canal and coastal interdiction)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul End of the Line: The Siege of Khe Sanh}{\f0\fs20 , =
Terrence Maitland and Steven Weiss, 1982.\tab=20
\par (A detailed account of the siege that preceeded the TET 1968 =
attack in Jan. 1968)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Hidden History of the Vietnam War}{\f0\fs20 , =
John Prados.  Ivan R. Dee, inc. 19995.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Kiss the Boy's Goodbye: How the United States =
Betrayed its own POWs in Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Monica Jensen-Stevenson. =
Penguin: NY, 1991.
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20\ul=20
\par Nam}{\f0\fs20 , Mark Baker. Quill Books, 1981.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Perfect War, The: The War We Couldn't Lose & How We =
Did}{\f0\fs20 , James W. Gibson. Random House, 1988.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Raising the Stakes: The Vietnam Experience}{\f0\fs20 =
, Terrence Maitland and Steven Weiss, 1982.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Remembering Heaven\rquote s Face}{\f0\fs20 , John =
Balaban, Simon & Schuster, 1992. (A story of the personal experience of =
a consciencious objector working in Vietnam for International Volunteer =
Services to complete his national service requirement)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Secrecy & Democracy: The CIA in Transition}{\f0\fs20 =
, Stansfield Turner. Houghton Mifflin: Boston, 1985.\tab (A history of =
the Central Intelligence Agency with copious discussion of the =
CIA\rquote s role in Vietnam told by the former director of the CIA)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Son Thang: An American War Crime,}{\f0\fs20  Gary D. =
Solis. Naval Institute Press: Annapolis, MD, 1997.  (A detailed =
explanation of the murder of 16 non-combatant Vietnamese peasants by a =
U.S. Marine patrol in 1969)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Ten Thousand Day War: Vietnam =
1945-1975}{\f0\fs20 , Michael Maclear. St. Martins Press, 1981.\tab (A =
detailed history of the Vietnam War beginning with the first U.S. =
involvement.  This book rivals Karnow\rquote s Vietnam epic)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Vietnam: A History, the First Complete Account of =
Vietnam at War}{\f0\fs20 , Stanley Karnow.  Viking Press: New York, =
1983.\tab (One of the most complete accounts of the history of the =
Vietnam War.  This is a companion to the PBS television series, =
Vietnam: A Television History)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Vietnam Order of Battle}{\f0\fs20 , Shelby Stanton. =
US News & World Report Books.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Winners and Losers}{\f0\fs20 , Gloria Emerson. =
Harvest Books: Harcourt, Brace & Jovanovich, 1976.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Without Honor: Defeat in Vietnam & =
Cambodia}{\f0\fs20 , Arnold Isaacs. Johns Hopkins University Press, =
1983.
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Novels (fiction):
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Going After Cacciato}{\f0\fs20 ,  Tim O'Brien. =
Houghton Mifflin, 1979.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul In The Lake of the Woods}{\f0\fs20 , Tim O'Brien. =
Houghton Mifflin, 1995. (A Vietnam veteran\rquote s return to the U.S. =
and dealing  with PTSD.  A murder mystery)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Novel Without A Name}{\f0\fs20 , Duong Thu Huong. =
Morrow, 1995.  (set in 1974, this story is about a North Vietnamese =
Army (NVA) captain who fought the Americans and ARVN)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Sorrow Of War}{\f0\fs20 , Bao Ninh.  Pantheon, =
1995.  (this is about a young NVA soldier
\par who is sent south to fight.  This book is a best-seller in =
Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The 13th Valley}{\f0\fs20 , John Delvecchio. Bantam =
Books, 1982.
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Oral history and Memoirs:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul After TET}{\f0\fs20 , Ronald Spector. The Free Press =
(Macmillan): New York, 1993.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Bloods: An Oral History of Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 .\tab =
(The story of Vietnam told by U.S. African-American soldiers)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Chickenhawk}{\f0\fs20 , Robert Mason. Viking Press, =
1983. (A detailed account of helicopter flight training, Vietnam combat =
and effects upon the pilot\rquote s return home)
\par=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20\ul Dear America; Letters =
Home From Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Edelman Bernardo. Norton, 1985. (A =
collection of letters written by U.S. soldiers to loved ones back home)
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Everything We Had; An Oral History of the Vietnam =
War}{\f0\fs20 , Al Santoli. Ballantine, 1986.\tab (A combat =
veteran\rquote s experience in the Vietnam War)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Fortunate Son; The Autobiography of Lewis B. Puller, =
Jr}{\f0\fs20 ., Lewis Puller. Bantom: New York, 1991.\tab=20
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Grunts, The}{\f0\fs20 , Charles Anderson. Presidio =
Press: San Rafael, 1976.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul My Father, My Son}{\f0\fs20 , Elmo Zumwalt. (The =
story about U.S. Admiral Puller\rquote s son who served in Vietnam and =
contracted cancer from exposure to Agent Orange)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul No More Vietnams}{\f0\fs20 , Richard Nixon.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Our War Was Different: Marine Combined Action =
Platoons in Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Al Hemingway. Naval Institute Press: =
Annapolis, MD, 1994
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Phantom Over Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 : fighter pilot, John =
Trotti. Presidio Press, 1984.\tab (The personal experiences of a U.S. =
fighter pilot during the Vietnam War)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Rumor of War}{\f0\fs20 , Philip Caputo. Holt, =
Rinehart, Winston, 1977.\tab (The personal story of a U.S. Army =
lieutenant in Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul We Were Soldiers Once...and Young: Ia Drang--The =
Battle That Changed the War in Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Harold Moore and =
Joseph Galloway.\tab (A detailed account from those who were in the =
battle of the Ia Drang Valley...the first full-scale battle between =
North Vietnamese troops and the U.S. Army First Air Cavalry Division)
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Photography:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul A Veteran's Album; A Photographic Memory Book of the =
Vietnam War}{\f0\fs20 , Jon Schneider. Turner Pub. Co.: Paducah, KY, =
1993.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Vietnam War}{\f0\fs20  (Pictorial History), =
Edited by Ray Bonds, Crown Publishers, 1979.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Tim Page's Nam}{\f0\fs20 , Tim Page.  Thames and =
Hudson, 1995\tab (The British photo journalist\rquote s black and =
white, and color photos of the Vietnam War.  Page was wounded several =
times covering the war)
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Vietnamese perspective:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul In the Jaws of History}{\f0\fs20 , Bui Diem. HM, =
1987.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul In Their Defense: US Soldiers in the Vietnam =
War}{\f0\fs20 , Dr. Pham Kim Vinh. Sphinx Pub. Inc.: Phoenix, AZ.\tab =
(A Vietnamese defense of the U.S. role in the Vietnam War)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Sorrow of War, A Novel of North =
Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Bao Ninh.  Pantheon Books, NY. 1993.\tab (A =
personal account of the Vietnam War written by a Vietnamese living in =
North Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Novel Without A Name}{\f0\fs20 , Duong Thu Huong. =
William Morrow & Co., NY, 1995.
\par (The Vietnam War from the perspective of the \ldblquote =
enemy.\rdblquote )
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Vietcong Memoir}{\f0\fs20 , Trvong Nhu Tang. =
Harcourt Brace & W., 1985.\tab (The Vietnam war from the side of the =
Viet Cong)
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Vision Accomplished? The Enigma of Ho Chi =
Minh}{\f0\fs20 , N. Khac Huyen. Macmillan, 1971.\tab (A Vietnamese =
criticism of Ho Chi Minh)
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20=20
\par=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\b\f0\fs20=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\b\f0\fs20=20
\par Women in combat:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul A Piece of my Heart: The Stroies of Twenty-Six =
American Women who Served in Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Keith Walker. Presidio =
Press: Novato, Ca, 199985.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul In the Combat Zone: An Oral History of American =
Women in Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Kathryn Marshall.  Little Brown: Boston, =
1987.\tab (A collection of personal accounts of the experiences of =
American women who served, mostly as nurses, in Vietnam during the war.
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Home Before Morning: The Story of an Army Nurse in =
Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , Lynda Van Devanter. Beaufort Books: New York, =
1983.\tab (A classic account of the experiences of an Army nurse in =
Vietnam and her troubles upon returning home)
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Cinema:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul The Cinema of Oliver Stone}{\f0\fs20 , Norman Kagan. =
 Continuum Pub. Group, 1995.
\par (A study of this Vietnam veteran film director and his movies, =
including several Vietnam films)}{\f0\fs20\ul=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20\ul=20
\par How The War Was Remembered: Hollywood and Vietnam}{\f0\fs20 , =
Albert Auster & Leonard Quart.  Praeger: New York, 1988
\par=20
\par }{\f0\fs20\ul Vietnam Veteran Films}{\f0\fs20 , Mark Walker, =
Scarecrow Press: Metuchen, NJ, 1991
\par (A compilation and description of films made by and about the =
Vietnam War)
\par=20
\par=20
\par }{\b\f0\fs20 Swain's picks of feature films on Vietnam:
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par Although Hollywood cannot definitively produce the Vietnam movie =
that depicts all the pathos, politics and individual experiences of the =
3.5 million men and women who served in the Vietnam theater, the movies =
below each represent in a small way what Professor Swain believes to be =
fairly honest depictions of specific incidents, personal experiences =
and overall mood of the Vietnam experience.
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 84 Charlie Mopic}{\f0\fs20   (shot in cinema verit=E9 =
style, a military motion picture cameraman
\par accompanies a squad on patrol)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Apocalypse Now  }{\f0\fs20 (Francis Ford Coppola's =
epic tale based upon the novel Heart of
\par Darkness about an Army captain sent on a mission to terminate a =
U.S. colonel)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Born On The Fourth of July}{\f0\fs20   (Oliver =
Stone's story about a Vietnam vet who comes
\par home a paraplegic)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Birdy}{\f0\fs20    (the story about a Vietnam vet who =
suffers traumatic psychological dysfunction)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Coming Home}{\f0\fs20    (an early film about a =
disabled Vietnam vet)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 The Deer Hunter}{\f0\fs20   (Martin Scorcese's epic =
about steel mill buddies who join the
\par Special Forces and go to Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Don't Cry, It's Only Thunder}{\f0\fs20    (a little =
known Japanese/American production about
\par the experiences of a medical technician in worntorn Saigon)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Full Metal Jacket}{\f0\fs20   (Stanley Kubrick's =
story about U.S. Marine training and their
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20 experiences in Vietnam =
during the Tet Offensive of 1968)
\par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Good Morning Vietnam}{\f0\fs20   (based upon the true =
story of Adrian Kronauer, an Armed
\par Forces Vietnam Network radio DJ in Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20=20
\par Indochine}{\f0\fs20   (epic tale of the French in Vietnam shot in =
beautiful locations)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 The Killing Fields}{\f0\fs20    (this is about the =
fall of Cambodia with the Khmer Rouge=20
\par immediately after the fall of South Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Platoon}{\f0\fs20     (Oliver Stone's first Vietnam =
film and Academy Awards winner about
\par the one-year Army tour in Vietnam)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 Saigon}{\f0\fs20     (an early, pre-U.S./Vietnam War =
film about the French Indochina War)
\par=20
\par }{\i\f0\fs20 The Ugly American}{\f0\fs20    (an early film =
starring Marlon Brando about a fictious
\par Asian country which, in reality, is based upon Vietnam before the =
U.S.military buildup)}{\b\f0\fs20=20
\par }{\f0\fs20=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx7920\adjustright {\b\f0\fs20 Vietnam Web =
Sites:
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx7920\adjustright {\f0\fs20=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx6840\tx12096\adjustright {\f0\fs20 =
http://www.vassar.edu/vietnam/index.html\tab War documents\tab=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx6840\tx12096\tx12240\adjustright {\f0\fs20 =
http://www.vva.org/\tab Veterans of America\tab=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx6840\tx12096\adjustright {\f0\fs20 =
http://www.theblackbox.com.hk/dragons/vietnam/vgeog.html             =
\tab Geography
\par http://emailhost.ait.ac.th/Asia/infovn.html\tab Gov\rquote t =
homepage\tab=20
\par http://thewall-usa.com/\tab Wall name search\tab=20
\par http://familyville.com/warlibrary/warlib6v.htm\tab War =
Websites\tab 120
\par http://www.infoseek.com/History_of_Vietnam?sv=3Dnz\tab Infoseek =
Links\tab=20
\par http://www.patiencepress.com\tab PTSD Gazette\tab=20
\par http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/shwv/arch-top.html\tab VN Internet =
Project\tab=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx6840\tx12060\adjustright {\f0\fs20 =
http://www.Vietnam@thehistorynet.com/\tab Vietnam magazine\tab=20
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx6840\adjustright {\f0\fs20 =
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_iv/index.html   \tab =
Dept. of State
\par }\pard \widctlpar\tx6840\adjustright {\f0\fs20 =
http://www.dtic.mil.dpmo\tab Defense POW Missing Pers.=20
\par }}
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE34D1.BEF159D0
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE34D1.BEF159D0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:21:27 -0500
Reply-To:     RDowning@UDel.Edu
Sender:       Vietnam War Era Forum 
From:         "Roland G. Downing." 
Subject:      Re: Communism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Forum,

In teaching about communism, one must somehow teach why it fails as a
political system in competition with the more capitalistic democracies,
right?

I have a gut reaction which holds that individualism (freedom) and an
appropriate amount of greed seem to be more fundamental to the human
spirit than whatever communism offers (the equality paradise?). I would
appreciate your suggestions on this.

Thank you all for your discussions.  Happy New Year!

Roland Downing